Is anyone actually hearing what Bush is saying?

The Christian Science Monitor ^ | November 19, 2003 | John Hughes

[liberallarry]

No.

[liberallarry]

Think about who benefits from non-democratic government - mostly priviledged minorities, theocratic ideologues, and pigs.

[Redleg Duke]

Islam, like most religions will flourish in a democracy. Unfortunately, democracy will wither under Islam.

[liberallarry]

...and racist bigots, and non-theocratic (communist and nazi)ideologues.

[liberallarry]

When you invade another country, of a different culture, and force them to set up a government of your choosing you're imposing on them.

[liberallarry]

You misunderstand me completely. I think self-interest forces us to do just what we're doing.

[Axolotl]

No, you really suggested Muslims are incapable or organizing a democratic society. To quote you...

I never said Muslims couldn't thrive in democratic societies not of their making ... although Europeans, Indians, and Israelis will tell you that assimilating them is not easy.

[Axolotl]

Unfortunately, democracy will wither under Islam.

What is the basis for that remark?

[liberallarry]

So you were wrong Add up the numbers. Find 650 million Muslims (I believe there are 1.3 billion Muslims today) living in democratic societies.

[liberallarry]

Well?...

[MoJo2001]

This foolishness will truly stop when Europe experiences their own 9/11. I do not wish anyone to have to live through that horror again, but the fact remains that we did in this country. We will never forget. When this happens in Europe, they will truly know that President Bush was right. President Bush is trying to spare them from this outcome, but they won't listen. They will pay the consequences of not listening.

[VOA]

It offered remarkable insight into Mr. Bush's thinking about freedom for the world's still unfree

If anyone feels they are not hearing all or enough of Dubya's speeches,
I humbly suggest two routes:
1. The Laura Ingraham radio show -- plays lots of audio clips of Dubya and other
world leaders and cultural icons routinely.
Among the Dubya in London clips was his gentle, but pointed dig at the protestors...
noting that the freedom of speech was active and healthy in the U.K. (re: the protestors)...
just as it is now in Iraq.


2. I think just about all of Dubya's speeches, no matter how humble, are
archived at the White House website (? www.whitehouse.gov...be sure you
use .gov or you might get a porn site!)

[Axolotl]

well what? I responded to the posts directed at me...

[liberallarry]

There is a very disturbing aspect to this. Democratic capitalism rewards talent and industry. What of the untalented and unindustrious? That's an ongoing problem that's not been solved by anyone.

[liberallarry]

Well how do you draw the conclusion you did from my statement which you posted?

[Monti Cello]

I think the people of Iraq would disagree with you, that the freedom and self-rule that is taking form is an 'imposition', particularly relative to the tyranny they have endured.

I am taking your use of the term 'impose' to hold negative connotations, and it seems that's how you intend it.

As such you seem to be elevating domestic tyranny to a status higher than US-enabled democracy, essentially preferring tyranny to self-rule for certain people in certain circumstances.

Do you consider democracy a burden generally or only when it is enabled by the US?

And would you go a step further and deny the existence of 'human rights' as a concept? Does addressing human rights concerns in other nations also represent an imposition on these peoples?

[hosepipe]

"Socialism has a bad name in America, and no amount of wishful thinking on the part of the left is going to change that.... The words Economic Democracy are an adequate and effective replacement." Derek Shearer cited in Reason 1982

"...I would like to be clearly understood...we, the Soviet people, are for socialism.... We want more socialism and, therefore, more democracy." Mikhail Gorbachev

[Axolotl]

Which conclusion did I draw...please direct me to the post(s) you are talking about if you want a response.

[dirtboy]

Add up the numbers. Find 650 million Muslims (I believe there are 1.3 billion Muslims today) living in democratic societies.

Well, let's see - 170 million in Indonesia, 120 million or so in Bangladesh, 100 million in India, 40 million in Europe, 10 million in the United States, 60 million in Turkey, 20 million in Malaysia, 20 million in Russia, 4 million in the Philippines - it adds up. It's nowhere near the snorter you made it out to be.

[liberallarry]

The implication here is that there are inherent, genetic differences between peoples. As I said, I am not politically correct so I do not rule that out.

That has been the implication - often stated explicitely - when Jews, Japanese, Indians, Chinese, and whites in general were accused of having too much power. And when Mexicans, blacks, American Indians and others were said to possess just the right amount - very little.

Let me try to be explicit - I do not rule out genetics as an explanation for observed differences , nor do I posit it. I keep an open mind because I'm not convinced of any explanation that's been offered so far.