Is anyone actually hearing what Bush is saying?

The Christian Science Monitor ^ | November 19, 2003 | John Hughes

[Monti Cello]

Imposing democracy on cultures...

Democracy isn't an imposition on cultures. It's an imposition on tyrants.

[liberallarry]

And my point is that Muslim societies will not be easily transformed. I never said Muslims couldn't thrive in democratic societies not of their making ... although Europeans, Indians, and Israelis will tell you that assimilating them is not easy.

[liberallarry]

So you say. Play games if it makes you feel better.

[liberallarry]

Did you actually read the article you posted?

Turkey is the only democratic Muslim society...and at least 75% of the world's one billion plus Muslims live in Muslim societies - not as minorities in other societies.

Someone misunderinformed the President - again.

[Axolotl]

especially for someone with a nickname of "liberallarry", post #21 has all earmarks of a bigot. I simply do not agree with the premise.

[dirtboy]

Turkey is the only democratic Muslim society...

Try the Muslims in India. Indonesia, the most populous Muslim country in the world. And the Muslim minority in the Phillipines.

[Axolotl]

Other democracies include Indonesia (170mil, largest muslim pop'n on earth), India (100 mil.)...

of course i read the article i posted ... you run the risk of making a fool of yourself

[Axolotl]

Sorry dirtboy, response intended for liberallarry

[liberallarry]

I think you mean post #22.

I am certainly not politically correct. Does that make me a bigot? ... a strange conclusion - especially for a conservative. :)

[Axolotl]

Just to calrify, since I am messing up my posts for some reason.

1) It is your post #22, not #21, where I though you sound like a bigot.

2) My post #27 was directed at you and not dirtboy.

[liberallarry]

India is not a Muslim society. Neither is the Phillipines. If you want to call Indonesia a democratic Muslim society you still do not end up with more than half of Muslims living in democratic societies...or any convincing evidence that non-democratic (mostly Arab) Muslims societies will be easily transformed.

[Axolotl]

Your implication was that Muslims do not have the capacity to run a democratic society. If you made a similar statement about blacks, jews, etc., it would sound pretty bad.

[Axolotl]

Bush said that more than half of all Muslims live in democratic societies, he did not say that most Muslim majority societies are democratic...

[dirtboy]

India is not a Muslim society

That's not the point. You were contesting this claim by Bush:

more than half of the world's Muslims are today contributing citizens in democratic societies.

It does not have to be a majority Islamic country (India, Phillipines) to meet Bush's criteria here. So you were wrong.

[proudmilitarymrs]

so, these other cultures just aren't capable of understanding freedom, so therefore it's a waste of our time and resources? Were the sacrifices of WWII not worth it? I'm sure the entire world would beg to differ.

[workerbee]

democracy and openness are very good ideas, good for almost everyone.

Almost everyone? Whom do you exclude?

[Monti Cello]

I'm not playing games, I'm challenging your assumption that democracy is in any way 'imposed' on 'cultures'.

As a practical matter, yes it is difficult to unseat tyrants and develop the institutions for self-rule. But morally, there's no problem with encouraging self-rule for other peoples.

[liberallarry]

Crooks, pigs, priveledged minorities, theocratic madmen, bigots, tyrants, aristocrats, etc. All human beings you know...and not insignificant in numbers. :)

[workerbee]

Cute. But I think you meant something entirely different with your original statement. As in the familiar "that's just the way those people are...."

[liberallarry]

Your implication was that Muslims do not have the capacity to run a democratic society

No, my implication is that Muslims, particularly Arabs, have not constructed and run democratic societies...and their history and present circumstances make it difficult for them to do so. It's noteworthy that Ataturk thought it necessary to disestablish the Muslim religion in order to democratize Turkey.

He did it - not me. :)