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French Milan Missile may have Knocked Out U.S. Tank (my title)
SciScoop ^ | 10/31/03 | Sciscoop

Posted on 11/18/2003 2:35:56 PM PST by fourscore

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To: rightofthefairway
anyone know anything about railguns?

You'd have to divert most of the Iraqi electrical grid's capacity to charge the capacitors in any reasonable amount of time.

21 posted on 11/18/2003 3:07:14 PM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: SLB; bonesmccoy; Gringo1; Matthew James; Fred Mertz; Squantos; Sapper26; M1Tanker; JasonC
Milan ping
22 posted on 11/18/2003 3:09:34 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (God is not on the side with the biggest battalions. God is on the side with the best shots.)
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To: Poohbah
Assistant: "Earth. Um...looks like what was left of Zontar and his bejewelled battle-shorts and his ship went straight through one of their armored fighting vehicles...
23 posted on 11/18/2003 3:12:22 PM PST by freedumb2003 (Peace through Strength)
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To: Poohbah
yeah thats what I thought probably not RPG-7V either maybe Boys just the sizekeeps throwin me but we've all had lucky shots
24 posted on 11/18/2003 3:12:38 PM PST by rightofthefairway
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To: Poohbah
Red Mercury penetrator sheathed in plasma stealth technology.

Next?

25 posted on 11/18/2003 3:12:58 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: archy
I thought spalling was what occurred when hit by a
squash head round, a flake (or as we called them fleek) is popped of the interior surface of the armor and proceeds to bounce around the inside, doing major damage and not noticing human flesh at all.

Squash head projectiles had a soft explosive that on impact
squished out into a platter shape before detonation, the shock wave travels through the armor and knocks a flake loose on the other side.

As I remember.....
26 posted on 11/18/2003 3:15:26 PM PST by tet68 ( Patrick Henry ......."Who fears the wrath of cowards?")
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To: American in Israel; American Soldier; archy; Cacophonous; cavtrooper21; centurion316; Consort; ...
ping
27 posted on 11/18/2003 3:19:17 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (God is not on the side with the biggest battalions. God is on the side with the best shots.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I think it was an RPG-7V.

or it was AT-14 Kornet!

28 posted on 11/18/2003 3:22:02 PM PST by Recon by Fire
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To: polemikos
I thought I read in one of the earlier reports that there was little evident spalling. That's why the crew is alive and why there was some confusion as to the nature of the missle.

Chunks of shattered armor roughly equivalent to the the size of golfball to that of an orange or softball, as developed by impact from a HESH or HEP round would be *a lot* and could be expected to kill everyone inside, destroy optics, hydraulic lines, batteries and radios, and probably ignite the ammunition aboard [though not usualy detonate it until the fires touch off a HEAT or HE round's detonator and booster charge] A *little* evident spalling would be about equivalent to the result of hitting a glass marble with a sledge hammer. But flying through the interior of a tank at speeds in excess of a mile per second that too can do serious damage- as seen in the impacted Abrams interior- if not to as severe a degree.

HESH/HEP is particularly effective against reinforced concrete, less so against spaced *Chobham* armor found used in the construction of British and US tanks. Typically, a HESH round impact may not even penetrate the armor, just chip off enough scabs from the interior surface to get the job done. Think of the demonstration of inertia when a cue ball strikes a line of pool balls and the last one on the end flies off with nearly the velocity of the cueball hitting the stack. Seperate the balls a bit, and that won't happen.

If you've ever seen a tempered glass window struck by a BB or air rifle pellet that results in a cone-shaped hole on the inside of the window and a tiny hole that may not even be large enough to allow the passage of the BB through it, you've got an idea of how well it can work

29 posted on 11/18/2003 3:23:15 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: anotherGerman
The M1A1 Abrams tank is widely acknowledged to be the best tank in the world.

Not.

A Tonka toy is better on paper, but until you get your tank on the battlefield, then the M1A1 Abrams is the best tank. :)

30 posted on 11/18/2003 3:29:36 PM PST by Recon by Fire
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To: tet68
I thought spalling was what occurred when hit by a squash head round, a flake (or as we called them fleek) is popped of the interior surface of the armor and proceeds to bounce around the inside, doing major damage and not noticing human flesh at all.

Squash head projectiles had a soft explosive that on impact squished out into a platter shape before detonation, the shock wave travels through the armor and knocks a flake loose on the other side.

As I remember.....

You're exactly correct: known as HEP [High Explosive, Plastic] in US practice, HESH [High Explosive Squash-Head] to the Brits. The 76mm gun of the Saladin armored car was particularly effective with a HESH loading, developed in the days before spaced/Chobham armor was on the scene. Once it showed up, the Saladin was pretty much withdrawn from any frontline service.

But the energy from such an impact and explosion also transmits heat, as well as the friction of the *fleeks* of metal [love the term; gotta remember that one!] tearing themselves away from the interior surface combine to get the resulting sand-like chips hot enough to ignite fuel, hydraulic fluid. ammunition propellent or flesh. And remember that whatever pierced the Abrams was hot enough to set off the Halon fire extinguishers....

That could have been a HEAT round's Monroe effect jet, a self-forged beryllium/copper projectile from a Miznay-Schardin effect self-forged projectile...or maybe, spall from a HESH riund or a HVAPFSDS sabot penetrator.

31 posted on 11/18/2003 3:35:24 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: anotherGerman
The M1A1 Abrams tank is widely acknowledged to be the best tank in the world

Not.

So what is the best in your opinion and why?

32 posted on 11/18/2003 3:36:47 PM PST by demlosers (Space or Bust!)
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To: Poohbah
Unlikely. The Milan has a 400-meter minimum range, and this event took place in a built-up area where a 400 meter shot is just about impossible.

Then you must mean maximum range....

33 posted on 11/18/2003 3:38:28 PM PST by webheart (Citizen's Grammar Patrol)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
I think it was an RPG-7V.

If it was an RPG projectile, I doubt it was the usual PG-7VL shaped charge grenade. The Abrams has faced them for years, they're a known quantity, and the tankers involved can be reasonably expected to have been very familiar with the effects of the RPG rounds on tanks.

The improved PG-7VR dual-charge rocket used for first detonating reactive armor, then driving the second charge's blast through the armor is possible, especially if the first charge had been disabled or combined with the second, as unneeded since no reactive armor was present of the Abrams.

And there's another, real scary possibility: what if someone has taken the principle of the hypervelocity LOSAT round and applied it to an unguided HVAP kinetic energy round for the RPG7 launcher. Especially if used to drive a saboted penetrator, such a round could be really bad news for Abrams tankers.

-archy-/-


34 posted on 11/18/2003 3:48:38 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: demlosers
The M1A1 Abrams tank is widely acknowledged to be the best tank in the world

Not.

So what is the best in your opinion and why?

The M1A2 SEP certainly comes to mind. So does the Merkava Mark 4

35 posted on 11/18/2003 3:51:07 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Poohbah
Unlikely. The Milan has a 400-meter minimum range, and this event took place in a built-up area where a 400 meter shot is just about impossible.

But if you look at the location of the hit (center mass), that is indicative of a stand off shot. Operators are trained to aim for center mass. A close in shot from an RPG would probably go for a mobility kill (take out the engine, or rear sprocket) instead of going for the well protected crew compartment.

36 posted on 11/18/2003 3:53:40 PM PST by glorgau
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To: anotherGerman
Yes, the Abrams is actually widely considered the best in the world. Certainly, it has the most combat experience of any modern tank.

The firm that closely follows armor development recently said that the latest German Leopard was the best tank in the world at the training course- but that the Abrams was superior in battle.

Which would you rahter have?

37 posted on 11/18/2003 3:56:02 PM PST by BushMeister
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To: archy
Munroe. Look up Mohaupt too. And remember if you ever need something like that you can find them in a steel mill. They are called "Jet" tappers and are used to blow the bot and tap a furnace for a run of metal.

They used to do it by hand in the old days, lost lots of hands that way, now they put one of these on a long pole and shoot a hole in.


38 posted on 11/18/2003 3:59:46 PM PST by tet68 ( Patrick Henry ......."Who fears the wrath of cowards?")
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To: webheart
Then you must mean maximum range....

No, minimum range. ATGMs, particularly SACLOS (semiautomatic command line-of-sight) ones, require a MINIMUM distance from firing until the missile is "captured" by the gunner's sight and actually starts guiding on the target. Too close, and any hit is just plain dumb luck.

39 posted on 11/18/2003 4:00:38 PM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: glorgau
But if you look at the location of the hit (center mass), that is indicative of a stand off shot. Operators are trained to aim for center mass. A close in shot from an RPG would probably go for a mobility kill (take out the engine, or rear sprocket) instead of going for the well protected crew compartment.

1. Just because you WANT to hit a certain point doesn't mean you actually WILL hit that point.

2. Like I said, there wasn't 400 meters available for missile run-out.

40 posted on 11/18/2003 4:01:52 PM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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