Mystery behind Aug. 28 incident puzzles Army officials (what felled an M1A1)?

Navy Times ^ | 10-27-2003 | John Roos

[bonesmccoy]

Shortly before dawn on Aug. 28, an M1A1 Abrams tank on routine patrol in Baghdad

[theFIRMbss]

>He was speculating that it was some kind of 'rail gun' supplied (maybe for testing) to the Iraqi fighters by one of our communist friends

SpecWar Electron Accelerated Rifles Kenetic Energy Weapons (KEW) SWEAR ™ Prior to the collapse of Russia, they were sinking billions of rubles into developing miniture linear accelerators as weapons. The technology thrust was to have a handheld device capable of adding tremendous kinetic energy to a hyper-velocity projectile through magnetic acceleration. The so called "rail gun" developed by our own country is probably something that requires three 4Xs just to transport it. Probably has a long setup time and is worthless beyond line of sight shooting. Most rail guns are probably still using depleted uranium slugs. Not to take away from what is a awesome weapon. Most rail guns probably can deliver sufficient kinetic energy to their target to rip it apart. This would be comparable to shooting a beer can with a .357 magnum - it turns the thing inside out. The same would happen to a tank or troop carrier. Picture in your mind the perfect weapon: hand carried - fires a small caliber coated slug - delivers sufficient kinetic energy to destroy target - can swat air planes from the sky generating a ULF RF coupling an EMP to neutralize all smart weapons and vehicles forward. A platoon, so armed, could defeat the armies of most countries.

[archy]

I am WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY out of my element here so I am asking a question from ignorance. Could a hyper-velocity rail-gun initiated depleted uranium round cause this kind of damage?

Never having played with one, I'm hesitant to say. But two generalities suggest against it: my bet is that after the crew finished licking their wounds and cleaned out their shorts, that unit's nuclear/chemical/biological monitoring officer and NCO were all over that vehicle with every Geiger counter, dosimeter, rad meter and other piece of monitoring gear to see if there was the slightest trace of radioactivity, as would be the case if a DU penetrator had hit, maybe from a improvised/modified A10 warthawg round or a *blue on blue* from another Abrams main gun round. And in which case, we'd have never heard about any of this.

Too, Russian HVAPFSDS rounds are more commonly fabricated from titanium rather than DU. But this would have been a dandy opportunity to test-drive a new prototype against a live target.

-archy-/-

[archy]

It’s not particle beams,

They're said to be particularly effective against particle board....

-archy-/-

[Cold Heat]

Any other gentlemen with informed speculation on this strange round?

Well, I do not qualify on the "gentleman or the "informed" part, but speculation says it was an experimental round from a anti-tank gun.

Most likely Russian orgin.

Curious event...................................

[bonesmccoy]

kinda makes me wonder if it's been used in "other places"... the ice hit?

[bonesmccoy]

If you're suggesting an accelerator gun of some sort, I doubt that's the explanation. Baghdad doesn't have good electrical power from what I can tell. So, AQ wouldn't have the electrical power to do a particle accelerator.

[CJ Wolf]

may have been a small meteorite. One of those punctured a car trunk a while back. But it was pretty big.

[bonesmccoy]

Thanks for your comment. It sounds like it's not as potentially concerning as it initially appeared.

I was under the impression that a M1A1 was impregnable to most types of rounds.

The heat of the weapon was intriguing to me because the round passed through so many layers of protection and skin.

[bonesmccoy]

Humorous... not really likely... meteorites hit from the top. this hit was clearly from the side. I assume that you are kidding?

[Cold Heat]

I don't think so Bones.IMHO.

It is most likely a variant RPG or truck mounted gun.

That would be my guess.

[archy]

Meanwhile, at Intergalactic Star Patrol Headquarters, somewhere near Arcturus:

"So what happened to that effort to explore out toward the edge of the galaxy?"

"Well...ah...Zontar said something about knowing a shortcut, and it looks like he made a teensy-weensy navigational error..."

I've seen something similar before, back in the 1950s. Took out a couple of M24 light tanks in Washington, near the Washington Monument.

In black-and-white.

[bonesmccoy]

It's not a kinetic energy weapon.

The civilians in Iraq do not have enough electricity to store that much energy in a portable device.

[Cold Heat]

I don't think so Bones.IMHO.

It is most likely a variant RPG or truck mounted gun.

That would be my guess.

[Cold Heat]

LOL!

My dog is responsible for the double post!

[bonesmccoy]

yeah... the movement of plasma or high temp gases through metal seems to need more basic science research.

We don't seem to know enough about how to prevent metals from losing integrity as high temps.

Orbiter TPS melts and loses integrity when the silica is contaminated by debris like the burning metal that seems to have been projected into the M1A1.

[archy]

Picture in your mind the perfect weapon:

hand carried - fires a small caliber coated slug - delivers sufficient kinetic energy to destroy target - can swat air planes from the sky generating a ULF RF coupling an EMP to neutralize all smart weapons and vehicles forward. A platoon, so armed, could defeat the armies of most countries.

How terrifying!

[B4Ranch]

WE NEED YOUR HELP! Please call your Rep TODAY

Legion Opposes OMB on VA Funding

WASHINGTON, November 14, 2003  -  The morning after President George W. Bush delivered his Veterans Day message at Arlington National Cemetery, the administration’s Office of Management and Budget – in writing – opposed an additional $1.3 billion for the Department of Veterans Affairs health care budget and reiterated its call to charge many veterans seeking treatment at VA a $250 annual enrollment fee and to raise the pharmacy co-payment from $7 to $15.

“A veteran is a veteran,” American Legion National Commander John Brieden said. “The law was changed in the ‘90s to allow all veterans to seek treatment at VA. Although OMB is willing to wield the budget to repel veterans from seeking treatment at VA, the men and women of The American Legion as well as Republicans and Democrats in Congress remain determined not to let that happen.”

Brieden made the Legion’s case to Congress perfectly clear Sept. 16 when he testified here before a joint hearing session of House and Senate committees on Veterans’ Affairs. Simply put: Health care for veterans is the delayed cost of war. Therefore, if Congress can meet the president’s request for an additional $87 billion to fund the ongoing war in Iraq, then Congress also can raise an additional $1.8 billion next year, and a $3 billion increase the following year, to meet the health care needs of veterans.

A blueprint passed by the House in April called for a Legion-backed $27.1 billion for the system, but in July the House approved an appropriations bill that called for $25.3 billion. Therein lies the $1.8 billion spending gap that the Legion, the nation’s largest veterans organization, is fighting alongside other veterans groups to close. As the spending bill for VA-HUD and Independent Agencies makes its way through the Senate, an amendment offered by Sen. Christopher Bond of Missouri -- an amendment that has bipartisan support -- could fill the chasm by $1.5 billion. Congress is also poised to remove the Senate Appropriations Committee’s “emergency” designation from $1.3 billion targeted for VA health care, and to send the entire increase directly to VA.

How badly does VA need the money? The American Legion’s “I Am Not A Number” survey in May identified scores of the more than 200,000 veterans who had been waiting from six months to two years for their initial primary-care appointments at VA. Recent news media accounts noted veterans of the ongoing war on terror also having trouble accessing the system. Although VA reports tremendous recent success in whittling down the backlog, about 164,000 veterans in the lowest of VA’s eight priority-treatment groups have been suspended from enrolling in the VA health care system since January because VA lacks the resources to serve all of the veterans who are lawfully eligible for treatment.

The American Legion is fighting to switch the VA health care budget from discretionary funding, which Congress must approve each fiscal year, to mandatory funding, just like Social Security and Medicare, whereby federal dollars are allocated by a formula to meet the system’s demands. The nation’s largest veterans organization also wants to end the restriction that keeps veterans from using their Medicare benefits to pay for treatment at VA.

Read the entire Statement of Administration Policy:

Download Statement (PDF file)

--30--

For Media: Steve Thomas, 202/263-2982; Pager 800/759-8888, PIN 115-8679; Joe March, (317) 630-1253; Pager 317/382-7745

[SLB]

I was under the impression that a M1A1 was impregnable to most types of rounds.

Nope, there are soft spots in various locations.

The heat of the weapon was intriguing to me because the round passed through so many layers of protection and skin.

Hence the name (HEAT) round. Actually it is not due to the heat of the explosion, but it sounded like a neat explanation. HEAT, High Explosive Anti-Tank rounds are commonly known as CE rounds, (Chemical energy as opposed to KE rounds - Kinetic energy)

[HamiltonJay]

I agree, I view this as a LUCKY SHOT with a standard existing weapon... don't see any conspiracy of new technology. THough if it is, it just means the evolution of tank and tank killer has just hit another round.

[Cold Heat]

like the burning metal that seems to have been projected into the M1A1.

I don't think it was actually burning, as in plasma.

I think it was liquified via pressure. Similar to the way a stamping press operates.

I think that someone designed a explosive round to do this to armor. (specifically the Abrams)

Gotta be Ivan.