Mystery behind Aug. 28 incident puzzles Army officials (what felled an M1A1)?

Navy Times ^ | 10-27-2003 | John Roos

[bonesmccoy]

Shortly before dawn on Aug. 28, an M1A1 Abrams tank on routine patrol in Baghdad

[BCR #226]

Hey Archy, would you add me to your list? As a full tracked armor nut, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks bro,

Mike

[archy]

It also may be that cost cutting measures and the "Commercial off the shelf" procurement methods touted by the Clintons gave a "wink and nod" toward going off spec and using mild steel in the hull sections instead of hardened tool steel. There is a hugh difference.

Nah, I've seen the specs. If anything, it's the other way around. The face-hardened plate is brittle, and when they live-fire tested an engineer configuration Stryker with a engineer demolition charge outside on top, it shattered the armor plate. That's good news as far as taking small arms rounds, bad news in mine country.

-archy-/-

[.cnI redruM]

As soon as the Fox NBC Vehicle got issued a Ma-Duce, it became a de facto cavalry scout vehicle.

[fourdeuce82d]

In your example, they were shooting it into a tank of water to preserve it. Note they did not shoot it through the gunner's flak jacket, the TNB, a few other components and into the far side armor. That is the behavior of a KE penetrator, not the residual of a HEAT round

In the FIRST example that was true- i.e. the bit from ferrari described a water impact. the SECOND example, however, showed the liner penetrating multiple pieces of RHA, each seperated by several inches, and finally coming to rest, intact, sticking halfway into the last section of armor. This is precisely the sort of thing we see here.

[archy]

archy, how 'bout add The Shrew to the Treadhead Ping List. He used to be an 1811.

The Shrew: Ping!

Wilco. And you note #61, and add BCR#226.

-archy-/-

[templar]

This isn't really new news. Alex Jones (infowars.com) was talking about this a while back on his radio broadcast. He was speculating that it was some kind of 'rail gun' supplied (maybe for testing) to the Iraqi fighters by one of our communist friends (we no longer have communist 'enemies', ya' know). He seemed to think the situation could be serious if the thing comes into common use.

But, what the h*ll ... "bring 'em on!".

[archy]

As soon as the Fox NBC Vehicle got issued a Ma-Duce, it became a de facto cavalry scout vehicle.

Yep. At least the free gun pintle mount the Fox has doesnt hang the belt up every 45 rounds. As recently as a month ago, they were still having feeding trouble with the RWS .50 mount. Kinda reminds me of the M2HBTT commanders cupe for the M48, with a 50-round spool of .50, then time for a reload! Most crews mounted their .50 outside on the Chrysler gun mount instead.

-archy-/-

[archy]

Fair enough that melt/burn are the wrong terminology. I still cannot think of a better word for a shaped charge penetration of solids without posting a paragraph on solids behaving like liquids under shock pressures.

Try *Miznay-Schardin effect.* See also *Self-forging projectiles*.

-archy-/i

[archy]

I can tell you to this day which point to hit on a T-54 to hit the ammo supply. Or a T62, or T72. Or a M-47, or M60A1. We learned our own weak spots both in case we ran across allies who'd changed their minds, or captured vehicles used against us. And so we would be real careful about letting anyone have a shot at those places on our vehicles.

And I know where to hit a Stryker, too.

-archy-/-

[null and void]

I am WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY out of my element here so I am asking a question from ignorance.

Me too

Could a hyper-velocity rail-gun initiated depleted uranium round cause this kind of damage?

My question is what would happen of the liner on a shaped charge was DU instead of copper? Would the charge forge the DU into a hyper-velocity round?

(null and void<----Available for hire - any Defense Contractors out there???)

[.cnI redruM]

I think I'd rather have a Fox than a Stryker if I ran up against a serious foe. My whole problem with the fiction about Stryker being a taxi rather than an IFV is as follows. If you have the drop on the enemy and define the terms of battle, you can decide where to dismount and where to park the Stryker in overwatch. If they jump you, the Stryker is an IFV if your enemy makes it one. Then, like a bad High School football defence, it will get exposed.

[archy]

Could the AQ/Militant Islamists have surpassed Russian technology?

If Joe Iraqi whipping up IEDs from old mortar shells and SAM-7 warheads in his basement has come up with a way to poke holes, even little ones, through Abrams armor he's missed his calling. Instead of rigging infernal devices so his cousins or sons can pick up some of the $1000 a head bounty on American tank crewmen and split their take with him, he could be making a hundred grand a year designing new goodies for the toybox at Sandia or for SRC.

[archy]

Only items directly in penetration path has been punctured or splashed with molten copper...

I've seen both berrylium and aluminum shaped charge liners in PG-7 rockets; I don't know what the newer dual-charge PG-7VR rockets meant for defeating reactive armor use. But If you took one of the dual charge warheads and disabled the primary charge, I wonder if the result might be much like what happened to that Abrams. I'd want to klnow what the liner material in the dual charge warheads is first, I believe....

[John H K]

That is it in a nutshell. All of the conspiracy theorists need to spend a little time at Picatinny Arsenal and other locations and see for themselves exactly what the capabilities of some of the modern AT weapons are. We have come a long way baby. Even the explosive material used in the warheads has been greatly improved over the past 30 years from Vietnam era RPG's to what is on the battlefield today.

I've noticed on the half-dozen or so threads on the subject over weeks that the less people seem to know about armor, the more likely they are to spin some sort of theory about space-aliens in league with the Russians and Chinese developing some sort of thermonuclear plasma tachyon rail-gun to explain the damage.

The Abrams is not invulnerable and was not expected to be invulnerable. Every time one of your weapons is defeated it needs to be analyzed and investigated so modifications and improvements can be made, but an Abrams being penetrated from the side in an urban environment is neither the surprise of the century nor does it merit panic.

[archy]

Dammit McCoy!

I TOLD you to set that phaser to STUN!

Yob tvoyu mat! Corporal, I swear, I didn't know the rail-gun was charged! I was cleaning it, practicing aiming at the Amerikantsy Abrams-tank when it went off! Don't tell the Starshina, okay?

[theFIRMbss]

> It's not *supposed* to be a fighting vehicle.

So, the Army says
everyone's a rifleman,
but it doesn't think

every vehicle
is a combat vehicle?
This kind of thinking

is one area
where the terrorists beat us:
To them, everyone,

everything and all
situations are combat...
By tradition, this

is how colonists
defeated the British in
the Revolution...

[archy]

See the damage to the "safety guard"? Multiple pieces, not one lump, did that.

Or spall from the tank's armor itself. There's nowhere near as much as is common from a HESH or HEP round impact, and it doesnt have the characteristic cratering resulting from a HEAT round's Monroe Effect jet.

-archy-/-

[SLB]

The Abrams is not invulnerable and was not expected to be invulnerable. Every time one of your weapons is defeated it needs to be analyzed and investigated so modifications and improvements can be made, but an Abrams being penetrated from the side in an urban environment is neither the surprise of the century nor does it merit panic.

The panic factor is what I am amazed at. Just like the loss of helicopters. There are many in Iraq who are still shooting at us and helicopters are not only large targets they are politically charged by the press here at home. How many were lost in Vietnam? Over 1000, and 200+ of them were Chinooks. As we used to say "war is hell, and combat is a real $*th#R &u$k#r."

The conspirators who get out the tin foil hats and suits and then start developing all types of super duper plasma powered atomic rail guns that will propel a penetrator the size of a marble through yards of armor at ranges in excess of tens of thousands of meters never cease to amaze me. I wish I had some of their expertise here with us right now working on the next generation of Army combat systems, we could sure use it.

[Fred Mertz]

I wish I had some of their expertise here with us right now working on the next generation of Army combat systems...

You rang?

[SLB]

Got your MGS phaser handy?