Moscow considers kissing ban

BBC ^ | Nov 8, 2003

[TWfromTEXAS]

I needed a good reason not to go to Moscow.

[struwwelpeter]

It's not the kissing that gets on my nerves.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

Vidka, vodka, whatever. <|:)~

Already had a few?;)

There goes my plans to travel to Russia.

[Orion78]

Whom to punish then? I agree, they should be punished.

I think quite opposite if I share my INSIDER knowledge about Russia on this board I do the favor because I educate you. If you think it is not appropriate then I will silence from that moment on.

Please, by all means, post anything/everything you know about Russia, whenever you have the chance. It doesnt matter if I think it is appropriate or not. Even if I felt it was inappropriate, (which I don't), I would still not tell you to be silent.

And I agree you have a right to be sceptical and I don't remember calling you paranoid.

You have called me paranoid before, but it was quite a while ago, back when we had our first exchange on a thread regarding Russia helping Iran to build it's nuclear facilities. My post on this thread was more directed at RussianConservative and I am sorry that I directed it at both of you evenly. I am just tired of people dismissing Golitsyns work as "Tin Foil" and "Paranoid" without really reading or looking at it.

[RusIvan]

Ah, so let me get this straight, and make sure you answer loud and clear so everyone on FR can hear you. You say it is America's fault that all your people died? America is to blame for all the people murdered in the USSR?===

My answer no. DId I say something like this? I'm for one very greateful to America that she helped my ansestors to survive during 1941-45. And now helps me too.

I want to say you Orion that my dispute with you goes from thing that you just don't know lot of things about Russia. But me is insider. I know Russia from within. So I try to explain these to you for you know better.
Anyway if you never was there so how you can know about russian people and history? I was born there so who of us two can know something about Russia if not me.

I see the danger or shortcomings of Russia too but from different angles. For example the antiamericanism after Serbia bombing spred very wide in Russia. It is bad.
But this thing America may improve relatively easy just to make things right with Serbia.

As for aiding enemies, Russia supported Iraq under Saddam, they support Syria, they support North Korea, they suport the Palestinians and they support Iran, even though the Iranians are building missiles with Russia's help that can hit anywhere in Russia easier than they could hit anywhere in America. ===

All of this was mostly before 911, many thing was even at times of Soviet Union for what modern Russia cann't be responsible.
Second thought America made Saddam the responsible of 911 just recently. Russia and many europians just don't agree that he is responsible.
Russia care less about Iraq, Iran or else just try to make some bucks with them. Anyway many europian and american companies deals with Iran and China. SO why not Russia?
Orion if you cann't stop american trades with China or europian trades with Iran then why you blame Russia for same deeds.
I almost certain that Russia doesn't sell to anyone offensive types of weapon or WMD or technology to make them (even Soviet Union never did that). I leave 1% for stupidity or theft.

That treaty with China is border treaty not allience. Russia will not defend China and China will not defend Russia. They just agreed not attack each other and not participate in alliences against each other.
Someone called it new "Molotov-Ribbentrop" treaty. If it has secret articles about partition of Asia then maybe:)). But who knows now?

[RusIvan]

You have called me paranoid before, but it was quite a while ago, back when we had our first exchange on a thread regarding Russia helping Iran to build it's nuclear facilities. ==

If I did I appologise. Maybe I thought at the moment that you are senseless Russia'a basher:). Which I think not now after I red many your posts. I was wrong.

[RusIvan]

I am just tired of people dismissing Golitsyns work as "Tin Foil" and "Paranoid" without really reading or looking at it.===

Let us think together about Golytsin. He was defector from military service. Quite different if civil citizen of country defects and when military defects. But OK he defected.
Then he devised the theory just theory because he don't have real tangible proves. He don't have authentic papers before him or he doesn't have any types of records. He cann't have them I understand. He just cann't defect burdened with load of papers.
The main thought of his theory is there are 2 circles of goverment in Soviet Union.
He states himself that outer circle never knows nothing about deeds of inner circle. So innner circle may convey to outer circle anything BS it wants. SO to disgise or to propagade or to deceive outer circle and the west if west has agent in between.
SO in order to defend inner circle then outer circle have not to know about existence of inner circel and NO member of inner circle under no curcumstances can be seen outside not only Soviet Union or even at many KGB sessions and discussions. Because all KGB stuff is outer circle.
SO I have a question. How Golytsin knows about the inner circle if he is not a member of it? Then if he is a member of it how he got away if he under no curcumstances allowed to go outside?
Then how do you know that his theory is NOT deception itself?

I have one more question. He defected about 40 years ago. How his theory maybe applicable today? After Soviet Union is dead. After all the soviet leadership of that time are dead or very old people. As I understand Golytsin himslef is very old too. He had to be quite mature guy at time when he was entrusted about inner circle and defected with that knowledge.

[RussianConservative]

No, I not ignore you I am not in mood to do research for other, but for everyone who read here:

Communist Party: 24.3%
Unity: 23.2%
Fatherland-All-Russia: 13.1%
Union of Rightwing Forces: 8.6%
Zhirinovsky Bloc: 6%
Yabloko: 6%
And before you cry sky is falling, it shall be noted, on most issues Fatherland-All-Russia, Unity, and Union of Rightwing Forces vote in unison, which give them: 44.9% of vote and Agrarians now leave Communist block and side with Putin, which move another 5% of vote.

[RussianConservative]

Go through and note, this is false news, only Orion (I need something to slam Russia) scream about this...read through, I post reality of it.

[GOP_1900AD]

Russia agreed to stand beside the PRC as follows: "China and Russia give firm support to each other's policies and actions taken to safeguard national unity and territorial integrity.The increasingly rampant terrorism, separatism and extremism have posed a serious threat to the security of sovereign states and global peace and stability."

This seems all well and good until one considers the case of Taiwan. By this reasoning, and according to the PRC's assertion that Taiwan is part of PRC territory, any military action on the part of the USA to protect Taiwan in case of conflict could be met, according to the treaty, by a combined PRC - Russian force. Further verbiage from the treaty which is of great interest:

* "The foreign, defense, judicial, economic and scientific departments of the two countries will strengthen coordination and boost cooperation."

* "But the effort to build a fair and just new world order is faced with a series of challenges. The two countries will make joint efforts to strengthen the leading role of the United Nations and its Security Council in international affairs, opposing the use of the arguments of "humanitarian intervention" and "limited sovereignty" in attempts to sabotage the basic norms of international law. [This is a brash and bold barb directed straight at the USA!.... BM]

Don't be fooled by the seemingly bland and vague language in this treaty. Look at the code words. Let me translate this treaty into plain English: "We will band together to oppose what we refer to as US unilateralism, and will hold as our goal the removal of Western influence and power from if not all of, at least most of Eurasia. If the USA dares to defend Taiwan, a general nuclear strike will be mounted using the combined forces of the Chinese and Russian strategic rocket forces." And you can take that to the bank! Who is hating who back into existence?

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

Moscow considers kissing ban

Well there goes my one and only chance to lock lips with the most famous Russian hottie of all.

[Poohbah]

Questions:

Given that Taiwan probably has a nuclear arsenal on the same scale as the Israeli arsenal (small, but you still don't want any of it delivered to your capital, be it by missile or by FedEx/UPS/DHL), is Russia really willing to back the ChiComs to the hilt, or will they back out when it's crunch time?

Also, how do you square this treaty's terms with China's claims to Siberia and the Russian Maritimes?

[GOP_1900AD]

Yes, there are always questions. And if we assume wrongly, and that the Beijing-Moscow "alliance" would not step in in case of cross straits warfare, and were wrong, then we'd be in a pretty bad position. Therefore, let's predicate our models on assuming that the treaty is for real, and the Russians would back Beijing with whatever means necessary in the event of a cross straits war.

[GOP_1900AD]

Oops, forgot the question of Siberia. For all intents and purposes, Siberia relies on both Russia and the PRC for economic operations. There seems to be a symbiosis emerging. Increasingly, there is cross border industrial coordination. Not only do the PRC focus on development of superhighways to ASEAN, they are now, as a second phase, building out toward the north and north west. What are Russia's similar plans in these regards? Imagine the combination of Russian oil resources, Russian timber, Russian military and space technology with the PRC's emerging high tech infrastructure and increasing numbers of engineers trained on building US products and equipped with advanced analytical skills. I have been part of the problem; in the past I too was caught up in the offshoring fad; I personally trained PRC engineers in advanced techniques. Sadly, although I stopped the beat went on.

[RusIvan]

Russia agreed to stand beside the PRC===

You know that idea seems as very alien to me. Because I'm born in Sibiria then you may imagine I know mindset of those people. For russians to ally with asians aaginst europian power is unnatural.

In my opinon you overlook another interesting development in geopolitic. I gonna tell you what it is.

The foremost and unseen for 100 years converse between Russia and Europian powers like France, Germany and Italy and others. GB now is under very much of hesitation but they may ally too.
My guess we will see REAL allience here and very soon.
New Antanta. Sort of. Between United Europe (EU) and Russia.

Remember there was always some kind of allience between europian powers and Russia. At differnet times theer was different countries but aomething was there always.
The history of connections between Russia and Europe goes for centuries.
SO when Russia is now capitalistic and Soviet Union is dead and Europe unites then Europe turns to Russia as it was. As it was during rules of russian czars.
German, french, british influence in Russia was always strong. If you knew russian language then you may wonder that almost third of words of modern russian is borrowed words from those 3 languages. It is because those europians lived in Russia and teached russians.
The most famous emperatress of Russia was Ekaterina II born german.

SO you see your mistake? You talk about unimaginable allience with asian country which alien to Russia under all angles of view but overlook real business which goes on.

SO I think this allience will be soon and the combined power of THIS allience will be awesome. Imagine the industial power of EU with russian resources and military capabilities?

What China? WHo knows China then? WHo in Russia wants to ally with China? It is not real beleive me. It is just game nothing more. The real business of Russia is Europe.

[RusIvan]

GB is Great Britain not George Bush:))..

[GOP_1900AD]

To RI: What? Do you think I pulled this treaty out of my a#$ or something? Have you even read it? Look, I didn't write it, your government and the government of the PRC wrote it. I am simply the messenger.

[RusIvan]

Have you even read it? ===

I red it in russian. And I have different opinion of its importance. It is your "translation in plain english" make it more then it is:). "If the USA dares to defend Taiwan, a general nuclear strike will be mounted using the combined forces of the Chinese and Russian strategic rocket forces." It is too wild belmont! Russian strategic forces is for defence of Russia not taiwan.
If you red that treaty more then you may noticed that this is the "nonagression pact". Russia doesn't attack and not participate in alliences to attack China. And vice versa.
SO China made her behind safe in case she will fight for taiwan. Russia promised not to involve. That is it.

If you talk about allience then IMHO there will be one and soon. But between Russia and Europian Union not China.