How the Vatican governs the Catholic Church is the business of Catholics and no one else, Mike. That is the way it is worldwide because Jesus Christ Himself founded this Church. It is particularly true in the United States which has a First Amendment guaranteeing the same and state constitutional provisions doing likewise.
I almost never make the following argument but, for you, I will make an exception. If you think that clerical predator/perverts performing heterosexual or homosexual acts upon others or being performed upon is a phenomenon limited to the apparent 4% of the Catholic priests involved in such behavior, your naivete is showing. If you think that the perversion that is clerical child molestation, homosexual or heterosexual, is limited to the infinitesimal percentage of Catholic clergy so involved, likewise. Just this week, the youth pastor of a reformed church in nearby Rockford was arrested for child molesting. He was quietly removed from his clerical duties six months ago. He is still married to the pastor's daughter. I am not saying this at all triumphantly. As you have pointed out, my Church has plenty of its own problems with wayward clerics. Men are sinners. It is not a surprise to learn this over and over after several millenia. It is no excuse either and it is not a basis for irrational discrediting of the faith involved which I have not named.
The Assemblies of God had clerical trials of Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert and defrocked both (or whatever the proper term may be). Their individual sins were not the sins of their denomination. They were both married and involved in extramarital heterosexual activity. There are published accounts of rabbis hiring killers to do away with the wives of the rabbis and there are other stories of homosexual abuse of children by married rabbis. Judaism was not the cause in either event. Nor is conspiracy to murder a wife by rabbi attributable to Judaism or to the mere fact that the rabbi was married.
None absolutely none, of the above-listed sins of clergy who are not Catholic justifies a single instance of misbehavior by any member of the Catholic Church much less its clergy. Yet, such sins will occur. We are not anticipating heaven on earth. Like our forbears, we will have to wait, if we are fortunate, until death severs our bonds with this earth before we may see heaven.
As to what you, in your imagined wisdom, may regard as biblical or non-biblical, man-made or God-made, that is simply what we Catholics reference as YOPIOS (Your Own Personal Interpretation of Scripture). Your interpretation of Scripture is your business and not at all a matter of concern to me or to most Catholics who have been adequately catechized. If your ideas as to the meaning of Scripture were Catholic, you would BE Catholic, Mike. You are not. To a Catholic, your opinions of Scripture are irrelevant unless you are invited to the conversation. Worship where you please and how you please and mind your own business.
In the Christian world, Roman Catholicism is still the big dog. We are 28% of Americans (fewer if we apply strict standards). There are more than a billion of us in the world and we dwarf numerically any other Christian denomination. If and when, anyone hamstrings Catholicism in the United States, your denomination, if any, and whatever denomination it may be may be will be jeopardized. We serve as your offensive linemen whether you recognize that fact or not. If outsiders breach Catholic defenses in the social civil wars, reformed quarterbacks will be sacked as well as Cathlic quarterbacks. Jesus Christ will no be sacked and neither will the RCC which he has guaranteed. Casualties, however, have been and will be sustained in the fight with those who despise us both.
You will note that I am NOT calling you a "Catholic basher." I see no purpose or dignity in whining nor any reason why I should care, Mike. When we need you to give us the benefit of your wisdom and YOPIOS as to whether our policies are right or wrong, biblical or unbiblical, man-made or otherwise, Mike, rest assured that you will be the first to hear our request. Until then, MYOB.
You can answer this one, Mike. Does the tail end of your first paragraph mean that you think that Christ was suggesting that clergy marry lest they become pedophiles because the burden of being wifeless is too great for a man to avoid sexual abuse of children? What sorts of men do you know, Mike? If any of them are single at, say 40 years old, do you think they are sneaking into the lives of kids in nefarious ways?
For that matter, do you REALLY think that priests are generally unable to find willing and even eager women of inspiring charms? In our world as we know it? Surely you are not that naive.
The problem is that some bishops who are the leftist AmChurch substitutes for actual Catholics are so busy ordaining perverted termites to advance various other liberal agendas not of Rome's making have created our problem. Liberalism, in the RCC, as in society as a whole, is the itch that can never be adequately scratched.
Selling indulgences, Mike? That was always the sin of simony. The sins of individual churchmen are NOT the sins of the Church, not in my Church not in yours. If you think that the "selling" of indulgences (they cannot be "sold" in any event, Mike, but that is too long a story for this thread), is what caused Fr. Luther to go his merry and self-appointed way, then you need to read Table Talk by his pal Melancthon, or the entire pack of "theses" that he nailed to a cathedral door no longer his own.
That's nice that you say good things about the RCC, Mike. We don't need to be patronized. I was brought up in a pre-AmChurch generation of Catholics who took as an affirmation of our Faith the fact that it was despised by the World but standing upon the rock upon which Christ founded it and continuing to do so until the very end of time.
It does NOT take a village to raise a chld. Mike. We are conservatives here and not collectivists. Our whole society is NOT harmed by a priest molesting a child, Mike, however disgusting, deviant, and degraded such an act may be. The child is terribly harmed. Those immediately around that child are harmed. You are not harmed by what happens among folks, not of your acquaintance and who never will be, eight or ten states away.
Vicarious experience is something less than actual experience. Each of us would do well to pay as much attention to our own households, our own congregations, our own neighborhoods, our own states as we do to the latest attention-grabbing headline from half a world away about which no one of us can do much in any event.
If I had the power to sign you to $15 million contract to play third base for the Yankees next year but only on condition that you not also play football and not also play third base for the Red Sox, I would be depriving you of nothing. You would be making a choice between perceived goods. There is nothing wrong with marriage. There is nothing wrong with the priesthood as a vocation.
The Vatican makes the rules for Catholic priests even more so than George Steinbrenner makes them for Yankee baseball players. There is no general contract imposed by union negotiations, no league or commissioner's office to respond to. Above the pope, there is only one authority: God Himself.
For Catholics, the Vatican makes the rules and sets the exceptions. Christ gave the powers of the keys to the popes. The Vatican says that choosing the Roman rite priesthood generally means staying single and not indulging otherwise with adult and consenting women much less with little boys or girls or with other men.
I trust I have not been too frank.
Did I ever say that? No, I didn't. Those things are wrong in any church. Please quit putting words in my mouth.
First you say that approximately 4% of priests are involved in this kind of behavior, then you go on to say that it's an "infinitesimal percentage." I don't know where you learned math, but 4% is not infinitesimal.
As you later said, Catholics represent 28% of Americans and are the "big dog." These crimes affect all of us whether you admit it or not.
Just this week, the youth pastor of a reformed church in nearby Rockford was arrested for child molesting. He was quietly removed from his clerical duties six months ago.
The operative phrase here is that he was removed from his clerical duties, not sheltered by the church leaders above him. One of the worst crimes in all of this mess is that most of the priests who have commited these crimes is that they have been protected by the bishops and cardinals.
The Assemblies of God had clerical trials of Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert and defrocked both (or whatever the proper term may be). Their individual sins were not the sins of their denomination. They were both married and involved in extramarital heterosexual activity.
Again, they were defrocked, not protected by their denomination. Is it becoming clear that you've missed out on a big point in your diatribe.
To a Catholic, your opinions of Scripture are irrelevant unless you are invited to the conversation. Worship where you please and how you please and mind your own business. ... When we need you to give us the benefit of your wisdom and YOPIOS as to whether our policies are right or wrong, biblical or unbiblical, man-made or otherwise, Mike, rest assured that you will be the first to hear our request. Until then, MYOB.
Er, I don't know whether you noticed, but ninenot started this thread and in post 169, said "let's argue." Who is ninenot expecting to argue with? That's right, people who disagree. FreeRepublic is an open forum.
For that matter, do you REALLY think that priests are generally unable to find willing and even eager women of inspiring charms? In our world as we know it?
Please point me to where I said anything of the sort. If you can't, then please quit putting words in my mouth. I don't lie about you, so please don't lie about me.
Our whole society is NOT harmed by a priest molesting a child, Mike, however disgusting, deviant, and degraded such an act may be. The child is terribly harmed. Those immediately around that child are harmed. You are not harmed by what happens among folks, not of your acquaintance and who never will be, eight or ten states away.
I think that you're quite mistaken. And even if no one but the child and their immediate family were harmed, don't you still want to stop the abuse? After all, abortion only hurts the mother and the baby so, by your reasoning, we shouldn't be concerned about the effects of abortion on society. I know that Catholics don't believe that way on abortion, so why do you believe this with pedophile priests?
Above the pope, there is only one authority: God Himself.
Yes, and He said that clergy may marry. Please read your scriptures.
I trust I have not been too frank.
No, you've just shown that you'll go to any lengths to protect a terribly harmful man-made doctrine no matter what the scriptures and the Early Fathers said.
I noticed that you refuse to address the facts that I've given you but instead engage in a game of name-calling and putting words in my mouth. Are you able to have a seriously intellectual discussion?