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To: DallasMike
Are you so sure that you really know what Paul was talking about, I mean what he had in mind as he wrote? Titus, for instance refers to a concrete situation and particular persons about whom WE know next to nothing. If we were suddenly transported back to Philadelphia in 1776 and were suddely introduced to men whose names are famous, we would find that our "knowledge" of them was very wrong. To be suddenly in the company of Cretans of the 1st Century would absolutely blow our minds, as we would be aliens on a different planet. Even if we knew their language and could explain that we were also Christians, we would hardly know what to make of one another.
179 posted on 11/08/2003 9:48:11 PM PST by RobbyS (XP)
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To: RobbyS
Are you so sure that you really know what Paul was talking about, I mean what he had in mind as he wrote? 

Yes, I am sure, and it’s clear that the early church knew nothing of priestly celibacy until it ran into the heresy of gnosticism. The scriptural text is very plain on its face and one would have to try extremely hard to force it mean something else. 

Okay, one more time: 

1Ti 4:1  But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Ti 4:2  through the hypocrisy of men that speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3  forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by them that believe and know the truth.  
 

I really don’t need a theology degree to figure out that Paul is prophesying about a time in which some church teachers will claim that forbidding some to marry is a doctrine of God, when in fact it is a doctrine of demons.

 
Mat 8:14  And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother lying sick of a fever.  

Peter was married. Claiming that Peter might have been married at one time but his wife had died is really quite a silly argument because Paul also writes: 

1Co 9:5  Have we no right to lead about a wife that is a believer, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?  

Clearly Peter’s wife was not dead and clearly she and the wives of other apostles traveled with them. There is no mention either of the idea of continence either that ninenot brought up. That’s just another silly excuse to justify a false teaching that has no scriptural or historical foundation.

Further, it is evident from the above passage that the apostles generally were married. The phrase Paul used is hoi loipoi apostoloi (“the remaining apostles,” or "the other apostles"). 

1Ti 3:2  The bishop therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, orderly, given to hospitality, apt to teach;  

1Ti 3:12  Let deacons be husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 

I don’t take this to mean, as a very few do, that a church officer has to be married, because Paul obviously had much praise for the celibate life and stated that some were called to it. Note that Vigilantius, a presbyter in the church at Barcelona in the fourth century held the view that clergy must be married – proving, if nothing else, that priestly celibacy was definitely not a doctrine at the time.
 


182 posted on 11/08/2003 10:19:00 PM PST by DallasMike
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