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To: VadeRetro
'You don't dismiss the possibility by lawyering on what "design" means to you.'

It's not semantics. Let me explain...

I have no problem with chaos theory. It is great stuff. It is just descriptive of a physical process, is it not? For me, saying "God spoke the stars into existence" is just a more concise way of saying "God took some matter and, by subjecting it to a fantastically complex scheme of rules, created a galaxy full of celestial bodies." No problem.

When you remove the idea of God from the scheme, though, is when you begin to have some difficulty. If "chaotic self-organizing phenomena" and "natural selection," among others, are the terms by which you determine that a mindless and meaningless void arrived at planets and then human life, then so be it. But did the meaningless void intend on producing humanity? Did it set the properties governing the universe? Did it say,"I love it when a plan comes together like this?" If not, then it cannot truly be called design. It is just what happened to occur. It cannot really be called intelligent, either, unless by "intelligence" one means a benevolent sort of illusion. Because a mindless and empty void cannot produce intelligence, no matter how many years and how many monosyllabic terms you try and shovel into it.

So it's not about semantics. It's about intellectual honesty. When Dr. Pigliucci says that humans are intelligent, I believe that he really does mean that humans are, in fact, intelligent, and he does not mean that we must perpetuate an illusion that we are intelligent because it makes us feel good. I share that view. But materialism does not give you that view. You must hijack it from a theologian.
206 posted on 01/05/2004 12:23:05 AM PST by PDerna
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To: PDerna
Because a mindless and empty void cannot produce intelligence, no matter how many years and how many monosyllabic terms you try and shovel into it.

I'm afraid your "conclusion" does not follow from your argument. Feel free to try again.

210 posted on 01/05/2004 8:13:38 AM PST by balrog666 (Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.)
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To: PDerna
If "chaotic self-organizing phenomena" and "natural selection," among others, are the terms by which you determine that a mindless and meaningless void arrived at planets and then human life, then so be it.

There is a lawfulness in nature which is the rightful subject of scientific scrutiny. You can account for an awful lot of what we see when you know the rules.

But did the meaningless void intend on producing humanity?

I doubt it. Efficiency was pretty low, if we were the point. There's a pretty high overhead not only in space useage but in time useage. Here's a timeline of just Earth history, never mind the 10 billion or so years of the history of the universe before that.

Vertebrate history is crowded down near the end, there. Human history is a blip just before the closing credits.

Did it set the properties governing the universe?

We only have one example of a universe. Whether another universe would have the laws of physics observed in ours is not clear to me.

Did it say,"I love it when a plan comes together like this?"

No, and there's a relentless anthropomorphizing strawman quality to your arguments. You criticize science and scientists for lapsing into such relic language to explain themselves even when they actually reason along different lines. But animism seems to be all you do. You utterly miss the gather-facts/form-hypotheses/gather-more-facts elements of what science is doing.

You say it's not about semantics, but when you take the semantics away there's nothing left.

... Because a mindless and empty void cannot produce intelligence, no matter how many years and how many monosyllabic terms you try and shovel into it.

Problem One, False Premise: It was essentially never empty or a void, although it was certifiably mindless when the flash of what we now call the cosmic microwave background was emitted about 300K years after the big band. It was a not-quite-perfectly uniform hot gas of hydrogen, helium, and a little lithium, cooling as it expanded.

Problem Two, Begging the Question: When did you show that non-intelligent life cannot produce intelligence under natural selection?

211 posted on 01/05/2004 8:26:03 AM PST by VadeRetro
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