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To: #3Fan
All you seem to be doing is repeating yourself.

You still haven't separated the women from the 100,000 (your number) who do traditional jobs in the military from those whose job puts them in active contact with the enemy. Even if all 100,000 are the latter, how specifically does where they are make war safer and produce less casualties?

Assuming they all are the latter, if all 100,000 were discharged today and the policy of using women in combat were reversed, don't you think that another 100,000 men would be recruited to replace them? Even without a few 30 second commercials on the media?

We definitely had a higher casualty rate in WWI and WWII than in the two Gulf conflicts. Did you forget that those were world wars, and at least in WWII we were fighting on two fronts, and the Gulf wars were local conflicts?

How can you rationalize the low casualty rate has anything at all to do with the presence of women? Maybe their perfume bambized the Irqui soldiers?

How, specifically, does an all volunteer military save lives? By assuming that the motivation is higher if a person actually volunteers? This is not born out by my direct experience.

Many of the Marines I founght with in Viet Nam were drafted. Each one had to tell me he was drafted. In actual service I couldn't tell the difference. I volunteered, and wasn't any more motivated than those that were drafted. Remember that men who volunteered for the service are mostly drafted from duty stations in the States, and other safe places, to go into a combat zone.

All the statements, and implications from other statements, I have read by enlisted women indicate that, beyond the few officers which are dedicated feminists with an agenda, they went in to get a job and be trained form a skill they could use in the civilian world. Of course, men do that, too, but they are capable of fighting with much less danger to themselves and others when their primary purpose is activated.

Can a "dedicated and diciplined" woman throw a grenade outside its blast radius, carry a wounded comrade from the field of fire, hump cases of heavey mortar rounds to the tubes, carry combat field equipment over many grid squares on patrol and still have energy to deal with a conflict?

Not hardly.

No American woman I know of could have dealt with the American method of fighting in Viet Nam. I do remember the Army coming in conflict with a group of female North Vietnamese regulars.

They were used as cannon foddar by the NVC and male programing did make our men hesitate critically in small arms fire situations. But they did not prevail because, while men are hardwired to defer to women, that is overridden when women are trying to kill them.

Nowhere in either Gulf "war" is there any evidence that using women in high risk jobs made any difference at all, let alone made the conflict vastly superior, unless you count the tail available to male soldiers without the necessity of going on R and R.

How, specifically, does any statements from "brass hats" about a volunteer military imply that women should be placed in high risk positions? Traditionally, women have indeed volunteered, but for rear jobs.

You have no results to prove me wrong. Our military has always been vastly superior. The only reason that women can fill any nontraditional jobs therein at all is because of the new high tech components.

Again, if all the women, even the ones in traditionals jobs were to be discharged tommorrow, unless we had a world war with the scope of the last two, the 25,000,000 men available would be able to fill the gap like the ocean filling a thimble without a draft.

The experiment with women in combat has only been active since the Clinton administration. There has been no conflicts enough to provide any evidence to speak of for women doing those jobs. The vast majority of examples have been negative.

You have been leaning on a "volunteer" military to support your liberal viewpoints on this topic. I have been waiting for you to start making the other liberal argument that equal opportunity DEMANDS that women be allowed to serve in the mentioned capacities, and it's just not fair unless those who want to can.

Go for it.

251 posted on 11/07/2003 5:46:25 AM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: William Terrell
All you seem to be doing is repeating yourself.

As are you.

You still haven't separated the women from the 100,000 (your number) who do traditional jobs in the military from those whose job puts them in active contact with the enemy. Even if all 100,000 are the latter, how specifically does where they are make war safer and produce less casualties?

By freeing up a better choice of men for the infantry.

Assuming they all are the latter, if all 100,000 were discharged today and the policy of using women in combat were reversed, don't you think that another 100,000 men would be recruited to replace them? Even without a few 30 second commercials on the media?

Commercials cost money, money that could be used for weapons and preparation. If it's so easy to get more men, why are they spending tens of millions of dollars in Nascar? If they needed to fill 100,000 holes, it would go up exponentially.

We definitely had a higher casualty rate in WWI and WWII than in the two Gulf conflicts. Did you forget that those were world wars, and at least in WWII we were fighting on two fronts, and the Gulf wars were local conflicts?

Regardless the casualty rate were higher. Our military is unqestionably the best today.

How can you rationalize the low casualty rate has anything at all to do with the presence of women? Maybe their perfume bambized the Irqui soldiers?

Filling less demanding jobs with women provides a better choice of men for the more demanding jobs. Better choice means better men, which means less casualties.

How, specifically, does an all volunteer military save lives? By assuming that the motivation is higher if a person actually volunteers? This is not born out by my direct experience.

Then you differ with everyone I've heard since Vietnam that say dedicated soldiers are better than nondedicated soldiers. I'd rather be in a foxhole with a Patrick Miller than a crackhead from LA.

Many of the Marines I founght with in Viet Nam were drafted. Each one had to tell me he was drafted. In actual service I couldn't tell the difference. I volunteered, and wasn't any more motivated than those that were drafted. Remember that men who volunteered for the service are mostly drafted from duty stations in the States, and other safe places, to go into a combat zone.

I think the all-volunteer force of today has a better record of performance than the military of Vietnam and I think it's because our military of today is made up of volunteers, not people who are trying to find any way to go home, which some of the draftees did then.

All the statements, and implications from other statements, I have read by enlisted women indicate that, beyond the few officers which are dedicated feminists with an agenda, they went in to get a job and be trained form a skill they could use in the civilian world. Of course, men do that, too, but they are capable of fighting with much less danger to themselves and others when their primary purpose is activated.

I've never advocated women for the infantry.

Can a "dedicated and diciplined" woman throw a grenade outside its blast radius, carry a wounded comrade from the field of fire, hump cases of heavey mortar rounds to the tubes, carry combat field equipment over many grid squares on patrol and still have energy to deal with a conflict? Not hardly.

But that only becomes necessary once every 12 years. In that time there were 10,000 incidents in the infantry where lives were saved because of a better choice of men.

No American woman I know of could have dealt with the American method of fighting in Viet Nam.

I've never advocated women for the infantry.

I do remember the Army coming in conflict with a group of female North Vietnamese regulars. They were used as cannon foddar by the NVC and male programing did make our men hesitate critically in small arms fire situations. But they did not prevail because, while men are hardwired to defer to women, that is overridden when women are trying to kill them. Nowhere in either Gulf "war" is there any evidence that using women in high risk jobs made any difference at all, let alone made the conflict vastly superior, unless you count the tail available to male soldiers without the necessity of going on R and R.

I think our military's record speaks for itself. It's the best, and I think it's vastly superior partly because we can put better men on the front due to more choice due to women filling less-demanding jobs.

How, specifically, does any statements from "brass hats" about a volunteer military imply that women should be placed in high risk positions? Traditionally, women have indeed volunteered, but for rear jobs.

I don't call once every 12 years high risk. More women have died stateside after all in this war, remember. The brass are career military. If it's good with them, it's good with me as long as I'm in philosophical agreement with them on most things.

You have no results to prove me wrong. Our military has always been vastly superior. The only reason that women can fill any nontraditional jobs therein at all is because of the new high tech components.

It hasn't always been vastly superior. Casualty rates used to be much higher.

Again, if all the women, even the ones in traditionals jobs were to be discharged tommorrow, unless we had a world war with the scope of the last two, the 25,000,000 men available would be able to fill the gap like the ocean filling a thimble without a draft.

But they would have to be drafted or recruited and that would cut down on their quality or money for weapons and preparation.

The experiment with women in combat has only been active since the Clinton administration. There has been no conflicts enough to provide any evidence to speak of for women doing those jobs. The vast majority of examples have been negative.

There's only been one incident, hasn't there?

You have been leaning on a "volunteer" military to support your liberal viewpoints on this topic.

LOL Advocating a strong military and self-responsibility and freedom of choice is not liberal.

I have been waiting for you to start making the other liberal argument that equal opportunity DEMANDS that women be allowed to serve in the mentioned capacities, and it's just not fair unless those who want to can. Go for it.

Instead of making up things I may say, why don't you stick to the things I've said. My agenda is a strong military. I believe letting women fill less-demanding jobs allows for better choice of men to fill the more demanding jobs which leads to a stronger force and less casualties.

265 posted on 11/07/2003 6:29:09 AM PST by #3Fan
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