How to lose this war

WorldNetDaily.com ^ | November 4, 2003 | Joseph Farah

[WilliamofCarmichael]

googling for "the way it was" I found this fifty-year-old article. It reads like something from today with its documentation of duplicity by liberals and its accusing the New York Times "of suppressing all the news which does not fit." I had heard of Malmedy but I did not know the nature of the mistreatment of Germany prisoners -- not Nazi war criminals -- by U.S. forces after the war.

MALMEDY and McCARTHY Printed in the AMERICAN MERCURY, November 1954, By Freda Utley.

How much we have changed. Is it no wonder that W.W.II was the last clear victory? Iraq is not settled. As in Vietnam the political quagmire at home is sucking victory into the pool of feces created by the war's (and America's?) opponents.

German army teen-age enlisted men and young non-commissioned officers were being "convicted" and hanged by U.S. occupying forces following the war. Congressman (at the time) Joe McCarthy along with other Congressmen "relying upon information given by such irreproachable Americans as Lt. Colonel Willis P. Everett, and by prominent religious leaders" investigated.

Today a career U.S. Army officer discharges a weapon in the presence of a prisoner and it hits the fan. No wonder they were the "greatness generation." They could tell the difference.

I have no combat experience so I'll defer to those who have: is it true as intimated elsewhere that if we are "nice" to prisoners then captured Americans will get "nice" treatment? I have no combat experience but I can read and I believe the answer is, NO!

[Alberta's Child]

Reason 4 is why America doesn't lose wars, they just lose interest. I thank you for making that clear.

A propaganda machine is not the real reason why Americans lose interest -- we are dumb, nihilistic, and self-indulgent to the point that we can't pay attention to anything that lasts longer than a 30-second television ad.

In my mind, I knew this "war on terror" was lost very soon after it began. There were two specific events that led me that conclusion:

1. The day the New York City Council passed the citywide smoking ban. It's hard to fathom how idiotic that is -- 2,500 people are killed in a terrorist attack in Lower Manhattan, and less than a year later cigarette smoke is considered a pressing public safety issue. Un. F#cking. Believable.

2. The day the "prescription drug coverage for seniors" was proposed by Congress. Again, the misplaced priorities here are breathtaking -- A nation that focuses its efforts on stupid things like this at a crucial moment in our history has not only lost interest in the war, but has lost it's f#cking mind.

[Ispy4u]

God knows our elected leaders act like they have crack for breakfast sometimes. But I maintain the opinion that most of these crazy laws come about because our media is intent on seeing the total socialization of our nation. That is what most people see, and that is what most elected leaders react to.

If 70 percent of people could be shown to support nuking california, I'd belive congress would propose doing it.

[Ispy4u]

Nice treatment from our enemies isn't necessarily the point.
The goal is not as much torture as there would be if we used such tactics.

[Steely Glint]

"And had you "taken it to them" what would you have accomplished."

Vengeance.

[ImpBill]

Thank you for your service and "can do" attitude Sarge.

I hope you are correct in your hopes concerning a future Iraq with a government somewhat resembling a democratic republic. In my most humble of opinions I believe it is a goal that just won't be achieved in that region of the world where so many people are either opposed to or incapable of understanding the benifits of personal freedom.

There are so many forces vehemently opposed to western ideology and culture. From the poor, un or under-educated followers of Islam as practiced in the mid east to the despots in power over them that I am really unsure we can accomplish that task.

One this is for certain, however. We must "WIN" this war even if it means bombing them back into the dark ages where their world view and philosophy has had them mentally trapped for eons.

Rather than attempting to define what winning will be, I suggest we need to really define what the WAR is all about. I believe it is about the ability of all western civilization to be able to live in peace and security from a philosophy bent upon our destruction.

We didn't start this WAR, but we damned sure must make sure that it is completed in "our" favor.

Unfortunately down the line I think we are going to have to make some hard decisions on "our rules of engagement" to include the manner in which we interrogate suspected soldiers in Allah's Army.

The genie is out of the bottle for LTC. West and the best thing the Pentagon and Administration could do now is to quickly get this unfortunate affair behind them. Let the man retire with full benifits at his present grade and "ruck on" (old soldier talk).

Again thank you for your service.

Who Ah & whooooooooppppp (new soldier talk).

[Ispy4u]

We have no choice but to achieve a win in that entire region of the world. You listed the reasons already. If we don't defeat the backwards thinking through example or force, attacks like 9-11 will happen for as far in the future as I can possibly imagine.

The time for change is now, and sooner or later countries that stand in our way will have to change or fall. The only other option is capitulation and start praying toward mecca 5 times a day. If I have one capable bone in my body it will be put to use to prevent that from happening.

I thank God everyday for the election of GWB. I hope historians recognize him as the first president to recognize this threat and issue the appropriate response.

[Ispy4u]

An honest response that has crossed the minds of countless combat veterans.

[colorado tanker]

I think we see eye to eye on 90% of this.

What makes me angry is the Army determination to grind LTC West into hamburger and make an example of him. Relieve him or reprimand him? Sure. But a General Court, loss of retirement pay and possible prison? If a morale bomb existed and you set it off in the 4th I.D. you couldn't kill off morale more effectively. These soldiers know LTC West willingly sacrificed his career to save their lives - and now they know the Army wants to send him to prison for saving their lives.

Remember, the 4th I.D. occupies Tikrit and will likely be the unit that would catch Saddam, if we catch him. Do we really want to destroy that unit's morale?

[Ispy4u]

The verdict in a court martial is still issued by a jury like body called a panel. If this goes to proceedings, they haven't had an article 32 hearing yet, then his chances are about 65-35 against acquittal as the rules are notoriously stacked against the defendant. But if it doesn't go to proceedings, he may have a longer career simply because of the news coverage. It would be hard to drum him out before retirement if all he gets is a letter of repremand. Though he will never get promoted.

As far as morale goes, the commander 4th ID will ensure that an extremely capable and highly effective leader will take over LTC West's unit. There may be a temporary slump, they probably are already in it, but the new commander will have the Div Commander backing his morale boosting efforts and is almost assured success in this area. Soldiers are notorious (got a better word?) for bouncing back in the face of things like this when a good leader is in command. Things are going to be just fine there.

[ntnychik]

The United States does not lose wars -- we simply lose interest.

Hah! True enough! I've often wondered how much of our national gene pool comes from the restless ones who left all behind to forge a new future on new continent. A few cases of Attention Deficit Disorder among them, I'll bet.

[ntnychik]

The United States does not lose wars -- we simply lose interest.

Hah! True enough! I've often wondered how much of our national gene pool comes from the restless ones who left all behind to forge a new future on new continent. A few cases of Attention Deficit Disorder among them, I'll bet.

[colorado tanker]

I'm sure the replacement commander will be a fine leader. I'm also sure the troops will continue to do a fine job.

I think you are overly optimistic about the impact this will have on unit morale and the aggressiveness with which the troops will seek out the terrorists. If scaring a terrorist with a gun report is an "assualt" punishable by prison in that unit, a lot of soldiers will react by going into a defensive mode. Why be aggressive, it's not only dangerous, but you'll be second guessed by people willing to throw the book at you?

It's the zero tolerance, overcharging of offenses mentality that is corroding so many sectors of our society.

The officer served honorably for 19.9 years. He had to be a pretty darn good leader to get a batallion command in the 4th I.D. Why do you defend treating this man like dogsh!t for an action that demonstrably saved the lives of American soldiers???

[Ispy4u]

This will not impact their agressiveness at all. Those troops are smart enough to know the difference between conduct during a raid/battle and conduct during an interrogation. They can't ask the bad guys any questions anyway without an interrogator there.

There may be the small percentage that will use this as an excuse to halfass do thier job, but those types are constantly looking for a way to cop out.

They will have the reasons for LTC West's disciplinary proceedings explained to them. JAG officers will have mass briefings about why their commander is in trouble and how they should conduct themselves followed up by a question and answer session for their benefit.

Our guys aren't stupid they know exactly what part of that interrogation that is being called assault. And frankly it was. I don't necessarily agree with the punishment that is being persued at this time, but I believe that it won't come to a court martial, if it were going to I think they would have already had the Article 32 hearing.

This isn't a zero tolerance issue. It is a discipline and order issue. LTC West broke one of the military's most widely known rules of conduct. Those rules are required training for all soldiers on an annual basis and before deployments. There are rules you bend and rules you leave the hell alone.

If he had failed to get the information after firing two shots, what would he have done next? Can anyone wholeheartedly say that he would have dropped it there?

And his actions may have saved lives but that is not certain, not every engagement costs us lives.

[Poohbah]

If he had failed to get the information after firing two shots, what would he have done next?

Or what if the Iraqi had given false information that allowed his comrades to successfully ambush the unit and inflict more casualties than otherwise would have happened?

[Ispy4u]

An excellent point.

[colorado tanker]

but I believe that it won't come to a court martial, if it were going to I think they would have already had the Article 32 hearing

He has hired counsel who reportedly is already enroute to Iraq for the Article 32 hearing. This thing is going forward to try to destroy a good man.

You miss the issue, which is not whether what the colonel did violated the rules of prisoner interrogation. The attempt to destroy this man is totally disproportionate to the offense.

What would he have done if firing two shots didn't work? What anybody does when a bluff doesn't work, fold the hand. Have you read any of the officer's statements? He is very rational, very clear, not the wild man you imply.

Your view of soldiers in the field as robots who will lap up a briefing and say yeah, the man who saved my life ought to go to Leavenworth, now that it's been explained to me properly, is just not realisitic.

He has one of the best military lawyers there is, so maybe at a very high price he can save his retirement pay and an honorable discharge. The Army is wrong to put him through this when he is ready to take responsibility for his actions.

I'm glad you guys weren't around in WWII, from the stories I've heard. You'd have thrown a lot of the "greatest generation" in jail.

[colorado tanker]

And his actions may have saved lives but that is not certain, not every engagement costs us lives.

The perps were planning an ambush. When they were arrested, it never happened. I'd like to see you argue this in that battalion's mess hall.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

Wanted: W.W. II vets to reveal how to win wars after winning the battles. Urgent! Experience dealing with PC a must! Recent experience with hand guns a plus.

[Ispy4u]

I wouldn't have to argue at all. But I would gladly stand in their chow hall and talk the straight poop to them about this. Those troops have seen it for themselves, sometimes the guerrillas are successful, sometimes they are not. It is a simple fact of life, I'm not saying they have it easy, but every one of them are professionals who know their job.

Our main difference I guess is going to be how troop morale is affected by this. In my experience, morale slumps due to big army action on individuals are usually shallow and short lived. This is one BN commander, there are at least 11 more BNs in that division that are totally unaffected by this. I'll bet they felt far worse about the troops who died heading home on R&R.

Our 4th ID is motivated to accomplish their mission, they have been in 'training mode' for years because of 'force 21' equipment enhancements, they are ready to show their stuff, and are more than proud that they have the task to control what may be the toughest part of the theater.