[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post, PatrickHenry!

Actually, I believe js1138 is correct in observing that the Intelligent Design fellows are approaching this from the wrong direction. IOW, irreducible complexity is not constructive and baits alternative post hoc explanations.

IMHO, conventional science will get there on its own by exploring the role of regulatory control genes and autonomous biological self organizing complexity. In the end, I expect conventional science to determine that evolution - whereas influenced to a lesser degree by random mutations - is not a directionless walk.

[PatrickHenry]

In the end, I expect conventional science to determine that evolution - whereas influenced to a lesser degree by random mutations - is not a directionless walk.

That may be. And I'd be delighted to learn that it were so. But you've correctly grasped the proper way to get there. And it's not by proclaiming victory in some razzle-dazzle books and tapes, and then trying to bull your way into the classroom with political pressure.

[js1138]

Actually, I believe js1138 is correct in observing that the Intelligent Design fellows are approaching this from the wrong direction. IOW, irreducible complexity is not constructive and baits alternative post hoc explanations.

That's the nicest thing you've ever said to me. I think.

What we really have here is a whole spectrum of conjectures, no points for guessing where each of us fit:

1. Just discussing the topic is evil. Evilution is the work of Satan and the destroyer of minds. It is the cause of all the mass murders of the 20th century.
2. Discussing evolution is OK provided you specify that radioactive dating is faulty, ice cores are incorrectly intrepreted, Fossil interpretation is fraudulent, dating methods are circular.
3. Discussing evolution as a failed theory is OK, provided you specify that it is a failed theory.
4. Discussing evolution is OK provided you specify it is an unproven theory, and teach ID and creationism as an alternative.
5. Discussing evolution is OK, provided you do not insist it is a fact.
6. Discussing Evolution is OK provided you don't insist that natural selection is not the only process involved.
7. Evolution describes the fact of common descent and natural selection accounts for the form of living things, even if the mechanisms underlying mutation and variation are not fully understood.
8. It's turtles all the way down.

That's pretty quick and dirty. Feel free to mangle it any way you wish.