Prebiotic Soup--Revisiting the Miller Experiment [biogenesis]

Science Magazine ^ | May 2003 | Jeffrey L. Bada and Antonio Lazcano

[DannyTN]

"I just find it facinating to have such a biosphere in such adverse conditions. I would think that the protiens organized before DNA/RNA started getting into the business. "

I think that biosphere is fascinating too. And I'm all in favor of exploring it and understanding the creation in all it's glory.

[donh]

And even when you've got nothing, their's always imagination

Yes, well, but we don't have "nothing" do we? We have a gobsmack of evidence, from paleo-meteorology, from paleontological excavation, chemical experiments and DNA mutational distance backtracing.

[DannyTN]

"Yes, well, but we don't have "nothing" do we? "

I think you have a gobsmack of imagination.

[donh]

Who needs Extraterrestrials,

Life that evolved on a moon of Jupiter's would be extra-terrestrial. You mean extra-solar, I think.

If it pans out, this has been touted as the biggest news for several centuries, but I suspect it will be a flash in the newspan. Extraterrestials that are smarter, more aquisitive and more aggressive than us might be big news.

[donh]

I think you have a gobsmack of imagination.

I just report what scientists is up to--no significant imagination required.

[donh]

I would think that the protiens organized before DNA/RNA

That's on the table, and, in fact, a self-reproducing protein, of a sort, has been built (or discovered, depending on your viewpoint). However, I'd not bet my money on this one. My money is riding on phospholipid chains organized by enduring adiabatic chemical cycles. Such as the citric acid cycle. "Organized" is really kind of a misleading word to use in this context.

Think stomachs, not brains.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Callisto is supposed to be covered with carbon-nitrogen compounds. A little heat might make something interesting happen.

[PatrickHenry]

With liquid water, carbon, and some trace elements, plus time, there are those who think that life is virtually inevitable. When we finally get around to exploring such places, we may find that life is everywhere.

[f.Christian]

Evolution uses existence as proof with no explanation of existence ... it happens (( globdidit )) ---

you 're comfortable with that ... globdidit --- gobble - gobble - turkey !

[<1/1,000,000th%]

It certainly seems that way on this planet.

[f.Christian]

I believe evolution is definitely a satanic conspiracy --- war with God - truth !

Look how good christians are demonized - banned ... all through society - media --- intelligentsia - cabal !


Main Entry: in·tel·li·gent·sia
Pronunciation: in-"te-l&-'jen(t)-sE-&, -'gen(t)-
Function: noun
Etymology: Russian intelligentsiya, from Latin intelligentia intelligence
Date: 1907
: intellectuals who form an artistic, social, or political vanguard or elite

Main Entry: 1ca·bal
Pronunciation: k&-'bäl, -'bal
Function: noun
Etymology: French cabale cabala, intrigue, cabal, from Medieval Latin cabbala cabala, from Late Hebrew qabbAlAh, literally, received (lore)
Date: 1614
: the artifices and intrigues of a group of persons secretly united to bring about an overturn or usurpation especially in public affairs; also : a group engaged in such artifices and intrigues
synonym see PLOT

[Loc123]

I'm afraid you are mistaken, my friend.

Life "evolving" on planet Earth encounters unsurmountable problems, some of which being achirality of all organic molecules without reason, inability to find a hydrophobic environment to link peptide chains (IE not just disparite amino acids and not abiotic addition polymers), lack of stable environment to allow any magical protocell to exist for a measurable amount of time, etc.

So, to escape these high improbabilies, origins researchers contend that life came from a meteor--which incidentally passes the buck to another, more "hospitable" planet. Certain meteors containing achiral (L) amino acids (that might be achrial due to intersteller radiation, but that is a hypothesis) in groups is their best evidence..though it also has great problems (aside from its merely passing of the buck)....

[Loc123]

I tend to believe that mainstream scientific theists are unafraid of scientific discoveries--as it almost always points to a Creator.

This is especially true in the following fields: physics, origin of life, and origin of consciousness.

The improbabilies that the universe was 1) spontaneously generated and 2) beset with the unique and improbable laws of physics (as opposed to trillions of other possibilies outlined in singularity physics) post to the existence of a Creator.

The nearly complete faith foundation of abiogenesis is another--sure there are some theories, but they all seem to have unsurmountable challenges ahead.

I don't know much about these smokestacks, other than they much be both hydrophobic AND phyllic at different times to allow for peptide bonding (a major oversight of many). Also these smokestacks can only be within a certain temp range if certain chemical reactions deemed necessary for even the most simple lifeform (save the immigrated lifeforms near sulfur vents) to function.

The RNA world hypothesis is nearly discredited as being way to advanced for the times. Self-catalyzing RNA outside of a cell is impossibly improbable. And if somehow self-catalyzing RNA got into a "cell," complete with protein channels and a phospholipied layer (also dubious), then it would need a ribosomal structure to synthesize proteins.

And don't even get me started on the mother-of-all-improbabilities--that consciousness could have evolved in the brain over a few million years!

[Virginia-American]

And don't even get me started on the mother-of-all-improbabilities--that consciousness could have evolved in the brain over a few million years!

For your reading pleasure William Calvin a researcher into consciousness. His theory (leaving out a lot of details) is that it is a result of a large brain that is able to sequence the firing of neurons. This is, in turn, is an adaption to throwing as a means of hunting.

I personally think he's onto something. No other animal can throw accurately.

[Loc123]

Thanks for the link--I will surely read it later.

I hope he can address HOW a mutation could have been propagated against impossible odds, or how merely increased complexity can lead to inherent, unique/discrete abilities.

[Loc123]

I read the most relevant part of his research, found here: http://www.williamcalvin.com/1990s/1998SciAmer.htm

As I suspected, he had absolutely no mechanism by which intelligence, let alone consciousness, may have evolved in the past million or more years.

You must understand, I am not necessarily debating whether intelligence is a survival benefit or detriment; I am debating whether the probability of consciousness evolving in the brain given 1-2 million years is at all probable. Given the complexities and improbabilities of neural evolution, not to mention the unique lifespans and social habits of humans (among dozens of other high improbabilities), it seems prohibitively impossible for human intelligence and consciousness to have evolved without significant intervention.

[Diddley]

Read later.

[aruanan]

Ah, those heady, already waning, days when people believed that organic compounds in nature were derived through biological processes and were surprised, though pleased, to see something of abiogenic origin (even such as ethanol in space) appear in experiments by people such as Wöhler, Miller, et al.

Of course, the unique thing about a living system is not that it synthesizes organic molecules such as amino acids, but that it is able, at standard temperature and pressure (though some extremophiles manage to push the temp/pressure envelope) and non-racemically, to do that which is done abiogenically at extremes inimical to life.

And it has only been in the days since Miller (University of Chicago BUMP) that the staggering complexity at the cellular level has been revealed; a complexity that completely dwarfs anything else in nature. The origin of the control mechanisms and the ability to carry out complex organic synthesis and molecular assembly is far more important than merely the origin of the materials employed in the process. All the problems of going from unicellular life in the pre-Cambrian to the multicellular life of the present (and relatively impoverished) biosphere shrink to insignificance compared to what would be necessary to bridge the gap between a primordial soup and the most minimal functioning cell.

[Ogmios]

Statistically unlikely Placemarker

[bondserv]

I believe we were created to throw so that the Angels could watch baseball in October.