Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Is your car spying on you? (Privacy Invasion?)
AnchorDesk ^ | 10/29/2003 | David Coursey

Posted on 10/29/2003 12:11:55 PM PST by Sen Jack S. Fogbound

Is your car spying on you?

David Coursey
Executive Editor, AnchorDesk
Wednesday, Oct. 29, 2003

Most people know that most cars couldn't run without computers. But most people don't know that one of those computers records what your car does in the seconds just before an accident. And even fewer know that this information could find its way to your insurance company or even into court.

ORIGINALLY INTENDED to monitor air-bag deployments in real-world situations, General Motors introduced this technology in 1990. Ford followed in 1998. The automakers kept the existence of these crash data recorders (CDRs) secret until 1999, when a GM executive revealed their existence (perhaps unintentionally) in a speech.

The data these devices record varies with the make, model, and year of a particular vehicle. One recent GM model, for example, keeps track of vehicle speed, engine speed, brake status, throttle position, state of driver's seat belt, and time from vehicle impact to air-bag deployment. Other metrics of a more technical or administrative nature, like how many times the engine has been started, are recorded as well.

The recording is triggered by the same mechanism that decides to deploy your air bags, based on things like sudden changes in acceleration or hard braking. The technology can track the state of your vehicle for up to five seconds at a time; according to a spokesperson from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), the data is recorded at one-second intervals.

Other vehicle manufacturers have built similar capabilities into their cars. But only Ford and GM make the data easily available--easily, at least, for people with a $2,495 "reader" module. A company called Vetronix has been licensed by Ford and GM to build these readers, which download the data from the car and then display it on a Windows PC.

Other companies, such as SmartDriver and Road Safety, provide CDR-like devices for use in fleet vehicles or so parents can keep an eye on their kids' driving habits.

The NHTSA estimates that 40 million crash data recorders have been installed in vehicles sold in the U.S., representing about 20 percent of vehicles on the road today. The agency has asked all automakers both to use CDR technology in their vehicles and to make the data readable by outsiders.

THERE ARE THOSE who think there's a major privacy issue here--specifically concerning who owns the data in the black boxes and what those owners should be able to do with that information. There seems to be general agreement that use of non-personally identifying data for safety studies should be allowed. But beyond that, there's still much debate.

Last month, California became the first state to regulate how the CDR data can be used. Governor-on-his-way-out Gray Davis signed a bill prohibiting the data from being obtained by police without the owner's permission or a court order.

My guess is that, following a serious accident, a court order would be pretty easy to obtain if it's impossible to get owner permission. Remember that, if you total your car, and your insurance company pays for a replacement, your damaged car becomes the insurance company's property. That adds an interesting wrinkle to the questions of how and when data might be obtained--and by whom.

In considering what privacy means in this case, I'm reminded of court rulings that OK'd the secret use of "bumper beepers" by law enforcement. These devices transmit radio signals that make it easier for police to follow a vehicle during surveillance.

The court approved the use of such devices--without a warrant--reasoning that suspect vehicles were being driven in public and thus drivers had no expectation of privacy.

I wonder if the same reasoning shouldn't apply in the case of a drunk who plows into a school bus while doing 60mph in a 40mph zone. It's not like the driver wasn't doing something that everyone could see. It's just that the CDR could be an expert witness at his trial, to indicate, for example, that he hadn't applied the brake or taken other reasonable action.

BUT WHAT ABOUT YOU AND ME, minding our own business driving down a familiar street when a car pulls out in front of us, causing a collision? Does the insurance company really need to know we were driving 5mph over the posted speed limit? After all, doesn't everyone speed just a little, at least sometimes?

As for people who don't use seat belts, perhaps Darwin has a special place reserved for them in his waiting room. But if the CDR data could somehow be used to get such folks off the road before the accident, I'm all for it.

Opponents, of course, wonder why the information is being gathered at all and whether vehicle owners should be able to have the CDR devices disabled or removed if they so choose.

I understand their point. But the raw information the devices can provide safety engineers has already proven itself in making cars safer. Knowing that the information exists--and, in the words of the Miranda warning, "may be used against you in a court of law"--could convince us all to drive more safely as well.

FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES. NOT FOR COMMERCIAL USES.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: accident; automobile; car; cdr; insurance; privacy
It wouldn't take much a stretch of imagination to add more stuff such as drunk driving, smoking, cell phone uses, passengers, making out in the back seat, etc. The technology is already here.

At what point should we call it "over the line?"

1 posted on 10/29/2003 12:11:56 PM PST by Sen Jack S. Fogbound
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Sen Jack S. Fogbound
As far as the state is concerned, it isn't your car anyway.
2 posted on 10/29/2003 12:15:56 PM PST by agitator (Ok, mic check...line one...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: agitator
All your vehicles are belong to us.
3 posted on 10/29/2003 12:19:07 PM PST by asformeandformyhouse (If it's not a baby, then you're not pregnant.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Sen Jack S. Fogbound
It's just that the CDR could be an expert witness at his trial

But is it a reliable witness? Can one be assured that this device was recording accurate data? That the sensor(s) weren't malfunctioning in some large, or even worse, small way? That the data storage element is reliably retaining the data written to it?

4 posted on 10/29/2003 12:19:15 PM PST by Eala (FR Trad Anglican Directory: http://eala.freeservers.com/anglican - Proud member VIOC)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sen Jack S. Fogbound
Very timely information. Last evening at about 11:50 brand new Lexus driven by an inebriated college student struck my house after careening through 3 neighbors front lawns, crepe mytles, hedges, flower beds and privacy fencing.

within 30 seconds of the horrific noise I rushed to the vehicle and opened the driver's door but no one was in the car! the driver had been thrown from the car and was on the ground on the other side of the car.

The vehicle was smoking and I couldn't turn off the ignition because the steering column had wrapped itself around the keys.

Police responded within 3 minutes of my wife's 911 call and took over. He's insured and they estimated he was doing 60mph+ on our residential street when he "left the roadway".

I wonder if this device is standard on Lexis cars and if my local police can access the data? Would be as interesting
as the two empty 40s bottles on the floorboards of the driver's side of the car...
5 posted on 10/29/2003 12:26:04 PM PST by Smoke6
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Eala
Actually, I see the problem the other way; reliance on a particular piece of technology simply invites someone to sell "pre-hacked" modules. Or simply disabling them so they aren't meaningful. And would Magnusson-moss act insurre that tampering with this does not affect your warranty?

Big deep questions generally arise when someone finds a solution to a non-existent problem.

6 posted on 10/29/2003 12:29:54 PM PST by Cobra Scott
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Smoke6
Why would you need that data? Seems to me that if anything, it would be another stalling chip for the defense, especially if the punk had run over someone.
7 posted on 10/29/2003 12:31:34 PM PST by Cobra Scott
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Sen Jack S. Fogbound
As for people who don't use seat belts, perhaps Darwin has a special place reserved for them in his waiting room. But if the CDR data could somehow be used to get such folks off the road before the accident, I'm all for it.

Got the response below in an email recently

Anyone over 25 should be dead. To the survivors: According to today's regulators and bureaucrats, those of us who were kids in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, probably shouldn't have survived Some of the reasons: .

Our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead-based paint. We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors, or cabinets, and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets. (Not to mention the risks we took hitchhiking.)

As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags.
Riding in the back of a pickup truck on a warm day was always a special treat.
We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle. Horrors!
We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle, and no one actually died from this. We ate cupcakes, bread and butter, and drank soda pop with sugar in it, but we were never overweight because we were always outside playing.

We would leave home in the morning and play all day. as long as we were back when the street lights came on. No one was able to reach us all day. No cell phone. Unthinkable.

We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then rode down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.

We did not have Playstations, Nintendo 64, X-Boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, video tape movies, surround sound, personal cell phones, personal computers, or internet chat rooms.

We had friends! We went outside and found them. We fell out of trees, got cut and broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents. We made up games with sticks and tennis balls and ate worms, and although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes, not did the worms live inside us forever.

We rode bikes or walked to a friend's home and knocked on the door, or rang the bell or just walked in and talked to them.

Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn't had to learn to deal with disappointment. The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke a law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law. Imagine that! This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers and problem solvers and inventors ever. The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.

We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned how to deal with it all. And you're one of them! Congratulations survivor, please pass this on to others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before lawyers and government regulated our lives for our own good.
8 posted on 10/29/2003 12:33:59 PM PST by microgood (They will all die......most of them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: Sen Jack S. Fogbound
Fairly easy to overcome: simply disconnect the "Crash Sensors" - the accelerometers.

And yes, I know that will disable the airbags: that's just a fringe benefit, when your usual front-seat passenger is a 110-lb female, wearing a seatbelt, who is more likely to be injured by the airbag than by a crash.
10 posted on 10/29/2003 12:45:19 PM PST by Redbob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: microgood
We also set things on fire, threw bullets at rocks to try and make them explode and sawed into golf ball cores without being burned by the deadly acid.

er, some of us did.
11 posted on 10/29/2003 12:47:44 PM PST by ibbryn (this tag intentionally left blank)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Sen Jack S. Fogbound
Imagine the hollering when CDR technology becomes married to the soon-to-be-mandatory-in-every-vehicle GPS technology. Then the law enforcement and/or insurance industry can tell WHERE you were just before the accident. To have the latitude and longitude of bars, casinos, liquor stores, etc., logged into a GPS file (downloadable, of course) might prove to be very incriminating if the driver claims otherwise.
12 posted on 10/29/2003 12:55:50 PM PST by flushed with pride
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Sen Jack S. Fogbound
I take my liability seriously enough to begin with as to not really care.
13 posted on 10/29/2003 1:34:41 PM PST by onedoug
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson