Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson for Message Board Moderators

Richardpoe.com ^ | 10-27-03 | Richard Poe

[SJackson]

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 at 13:41

Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson for Message Board Moderators

In a recent blog entry titled, "I've Been Red-Baited!", I wrote, "I'm not familiar with LibertyForum.org, but it appears to be an anti-Bush, anti-war message board with a distinctly anti-Jewish undertone."

A member of LibertyForum.org named Max Soldo (aka "thoughtcriminal") has responded by e-mail and provided further clarification of LibertyForum's political orientation. He writes:

This forum is a libertarian forum, and is devoted to the libertarian concept of unabashed free speech. With that principle in mind, most posters aren't libertarian as many fringe types have taken advantage of this policy (which includes a no-banning policy) to run amok...hence the preponderance of anti-Jewish posts on this forum.

All of this raises interesting questions for any message board moderator -- such as myself -- who has tried his best to allow a relatively high level of free expression. Inevitably, Nazi trolls find your forum and begin probing your defenses. If you allow them to post messages, they immediately spread the word to other Nazi trolls and soon your message board is infested.

At that point, all the normal people stop posting. It's a bit like when a fight breaks out in a bar and everyone stops talking and turns to watch the fight, transfixed. Suddenly, your message board becomes an arena for Nazi trolls and people arguing with Nazi trolls.

This is called "free speech."

I decided long ago that allowing Nazi trolls to occupy my message board and drive off everyone who does not share their idiosyncratic obsessions is a very poor method for encouraging "free speech." Therefore, I make frequent and forceful use of such allegedly un-libertarian methods as censoring and, when necessary, banning troublemakers, brownshirted or otherwise.

Apparently, the decision-makers at LibertyForum.org have adopted a different approach. As a result, their self-styled "libertarian" message board has become, by Mr. Soldo's description, a playground for non-libertarian "fringe types" to "run amok."

"It does get quite ugly at times, but that's the price one pays for sticking to one's principles," writes Mr. Soldo in a subsequent e-mail.

Well, if that's the price, I don't think I'm willing to pay it. I will add the sad fate of LibertyForum.org to my growing list of reasons for rethinking whether or not I wish to continue calling myself a "libertarian."

 

[SJackson]

Good lord Jackson! Your thread "Attack of the Nazi Trolls: A Lesson for Message Board Moderators"; -- is being Attacked by FR's Nazi Trolls!

I don't see many of those here.

[MadameAxe]

BTW, MA, do you still listen by your radio with baited breath every Thanksgiving, hoping that your local doper FM radio station plays "Alice's Restaurant" by Arlo Guthrie.

Uh, gee Dane, why should I care if they play it on the radio when I've got it on vinyl and can listen to it whenever I like. And I believe the word you were looking for was "bated". You may go fishing with your breath but I certainly don't.

[JohnGalt]

I'm not sure what it would solve.

In the early days, we never had a problem identifying the Stormfront/National Alliance folks and they were promptly banned. Though an interesting example of the problem here is that it was Stormfront who practically single-handedly kept the Bobby-Ann Williams/Bill Clinton love child story alive only because they had scanned in the photo from George Caprozi Jr's 1992 Clinton book. The picture was posted on FR and no one thought anything of it.

I even supported the eventual banning of Michael Rivero. Its fun to have a books and tapes guy on a web site but he really was selling too hard and FR was free advertising.

The real problem was the loss of some of the best skilled web researchers who could whip out a fully linked dissection of government speak within hours. That came with the arrival of an active number of pro-war posters who don't even claim to be that conservative or libertarian. They do so honestly and openly (see Chancellor Palpatine or Poohbah) so I have no issue with them, but they yelled loudly against dissent and brought little to the table in the way of research talents.

You see, the effort to demonize trolls, created a group think issue that effects the best right leaning news forum on the web. Group think is the enemy of 'original work;' original work being the stuff that came from bcspecht, Uncle Bill, Wallaby and all these people I never met but read religiously back in the early days.

[OWK]

But to say that we were pointing people over to LF is not accurate.

Nobody said a thing about "we".

I said Jim.

I've watched him do it.

So you think LF now has a problem. Since LF is trying to be run by a particular set of ideals, it should be interesting to see how it resolves this problem. I doubt that placing the blame for the problem externally is going to lead to a solution. Especially when you incorrectly place the blame.

LF (for whatever problems it may have) will always have the morally superior position to you and your ilk. It doesn't keep "profiles" on posters.. It doesn't ban.. it doesn't threaten... it doesn't censor... it doesn't hide the past.

That's for people like you.

I'd just as soon deal with things forthrightly.. warts and all.

[dirtboy]

I'd just as soon deal with things forthrightly.. warts and all.

I'd rather realize that the 1st Amendment, along with freedom of expression, also mandates freedom of association. And I really don't care to associate with the neonazi garbage that unfortunately has come to infest LF.

Every forum has to make a decision regarding moderation and exactly what is moderated and how far it goes. It's been more interesting to watch Neil and Goldi at LP try to wrestle with how to apply moderation than it has been to watch the experiment in uncontrolled freedom of expression at LF. We all know that there is garbage in this world, the question is, how do we deal with it?

[mrsmith]

"don't use this thread to curse and slime Free Republic. "

Spreading propaganda about Jim and FR is the only reason some people come here.

... it's all our fault that those other sites suck you see.

[dirtboy]

That first sentence didn't come out right. Try again:

I'd rather realize that the 1st Amendment, along with freedom of expression, also recognizes freedom of association.

[JohnGalt]

I don't understand your point re: "There's nothing un-libertarian about respecting property rights" in relation to my post. Poe suggested that he is not sure whether he is still a libertarian; my point is that his line does not make any sense if he is at the present time considering himself a libertarian.

That was out of context-- I assume unintentional; I was referring to Brian S and Yonif posting specifically about natural disasters befalling the United States after the Bush Administration spoke out about a particular Israeli action.

I would be happy to name some other posters on this site who advocate "nuking Mecca" cheering when Rachel Corrie was killed--an American citizen no less, a leftie, yes, but cheering her death? We could go dig these threads up if you like but what is the point?

[veronica]

... it's all our fault that those other sites suck you see.

Riiiiiiiiight. ;)

[tpaine]

Have you ever thought that maybe it was YOU that brings out the worst in otherwise normal people?
53 posted on 10/27/2003 12:40 PM PST by 11B3

---

To: 11B3
Can you show us the otherwise normal people here?
59 -tpaine-

---

11B3 wrote: Your ascerbic wit is sounding a lot more like a spoiled liberal child with every post. Remember common manners? Post when posted to? If I wanted your reply I would have directed my comment to you. Odd choice of handles for your attitude - and your ego as well.

---

Attitude? How weird that you accuse me..

[Dane]

Uh, gee Dane, why should I care if they play it on the radio when I've got it on vinyl and can listen to it whenever I like. And I believe the word you were looking for was "bated". You may go fishing with your breath but I certainly don't.

Still remember you being so excited about "Alice's Restaurant" being played on Thanksgiving day, it was a "tradition" on FM radio, dagnabit, on a Thanksgiving day thread on FR a few years ago.

[Aurelius]

I post over at LF. (This forum has become a little too bien pensant for me, so I rarely frequent it). Take it from me, that that guy Richard Poe is full of bs.

[veronica]

I don't see where he's saying that at all, simply commenting on the evolution of a "libertarian" forum, which, imo, is anarchist at best, a fascist pseudo hate site at worst. Personally I don't associate them with libertarianism at all.

The concept of libertarianism has been hijacked by anti-semites who use it as cover. I would not judge the entire philosophy by the cranks who have adopted it.

[Simcha7]

SHALOM!

Tpaine,

Did you actually Believe that FR does Not have NAZI and ISLAMA-NAZI TROLLS???

Wake UP and Smell the Camel Dung!

Those of us who have been here on FR for Years, can Smell these Demonic IDIOTS the minute they show up and Spew their GARBAGE.

NOTE To: Nazi Trolls and Islama - Nazi Trolls on FR...

One Day Soon and Very Soon, You ALL will have to Stand Before The Throne Of The KING of The JEWS and GIVE an Account for Your Demonic Behaviors, thoughts, deeds and intentions.

[tpaine]

Whatever. -- Altho I believe your condition can fairly be called willful blindness..

[Dales]

Nobody said a thing about "we".

Quoting directly, "You guys dumped your trash in the well".

will always have the morally superior position to you and your ilk

You are free to hold this opinion. I think most people would tend to agree with Mr. Poe, however, on this matter.

By your "thanks a lot" post, it seems to me that you are admitting there is a problem. You don't seem to like how Free Republic has handled this problem. Why not convince LF to enact the 'morally superior' solution to the problem? Let's see the solution you find superior put into action, and then the world can judge.

[Neets]

Zing!

[mrsmith]

Well, in a way it's true!

We have all the knowledgeable, thoughtful conservative posters- heck why would anyone like that ever leave?

They are left with only fervent hard core idealogues- of various stripes- who only share a hatred for FR.

I feel sorry for Liberty Post ( who I check on every month or so), they struggle to be a libertarian site, but they haven't met the philosophical challenge of people who post garbage.
Liberty Forum never had a chance from the beginning. Too much egotistical crap in that "marketplace".

And then there are blogs now too.

[dirtboy]

You may go fishing with your breath but I certainly don't.

In the case of Dane, I've heard it's loosely akin to fishing with hand grenades.

[Chancellor Palpatine]

...the best skilled web researchers...

Translation - the most prolific web cranks felt like they couldn't spew their self abusive bilge to like minded cranks for a bunch of "attaboys" anymore - they would actually be forced to justify their half-assed musings.