28 Rounds fired - Police can't hit "shooter's" bull's-eye on chest

Knoxville News-Sentinel ^ | September 30, 2003 | JAMIE SATTERFIELD

[KellyAdmirer]

Some were probably firing at ex-wives, or old girlfriends, or their high school math teacher....

[absalom01]

"All I can say is that it wasn't coming at me ..."

Good point.

One has to question why shots were fired if the situation exceeded the skill level of the guys on scene, but at the same time it's easy to underestimate the difficulty of the marksmanship problem that was presented here. Crazy people don't stand calmly in one place, or walk slowly in a nice straight line -- they weave all over the place. It is EXPONENTIALLY more difficult to hit a target that is moving laterally than a simple static target at a fixed range, and folks would be well advised to avoid snickering until they get a chance to try it themselves. There are a few ranges around the country that have the facilities for this, and believe me, it's a very humbling experience.

Says more about training quality, than to any deficiencies of the individual officers in this case, IMHO.

[dasboot]

Guilty! (but I still do pretty good...I always win the box o' Crispy Creams)

[umgud]

Thye used the ole spray and pray system. Even with adrenalin, you'd think one out of the 6 could shoot straight.

[The Shrew]

When soldiers were debriefed after the Civil War had ended, a large percentage of them admitted they fired high or low so as to miss. The human being usually needs to be retrained in order to willingly kill. The process is somewhat long (approximately 6 weeks) and is very intensive. It is employed at all modern boot camps, and began when the Federals realized what had happened in the Civil War.

Lt. Col Grossman of the US Army has written a book called, "On Killing". He details this book extraordinarily well and with the exception of the last two chapters in which he takes the view that only the Army or Police should have access to weapons it is an excellent read.

Regards,

TS

[Billthedrill]

You're so right about the "humbling experience" part. I have been humbled. Really, really humbled. I spent a couple of lifetimes in a shoot-house one fine Saturday afternoon last year and I think I lost five pounds sweating - and that was with simunitions, not even real ammo. Proudly put a double-tap straight through the forehead...of the hostage. I will never, never attempt to clear a house by myself, and I respect anyone who does, and I will never criticize someone who has to do this stuff for real.

That said, these guys need some serious range time.

[dasboot]

yearly?? Cops should be made to spend at least an hour per month at the range, IMO

I would go for that! But it'd have to be convenient. Right now we have to drive five miles out of town and a mile down a "Baja 1000" boulder-strewn road...in our private m/v's.... to get to the range. An indoor range would be nice...used to have one at the old place. I think it got shot down in the new place because of lead-dust and other liability concerns...or just plain lack of money. Plus, the officers would have to go out of a duty shift or be paid overtime rate for off-duty attendence. That'd cost my city (not too big) $120,000/year...not including ammo.

I don't think the whiners would go for a range in-city: just too un-PC....promoting an atmosphere of violence, etc.

[struwwelpeter]

he takes the view that only the Army or Police should have access to weapons

I suppose they glossed over the US Constitution while LTC Grossman was at Command and General Staff College.

The thing is, marksmen cannot be created in a few weeks of basic training and AIT (during which they go to the range how many times? 3? 4?).

I'll wager the best shooters were pretty darn good before they joined the service and police force. I'll bet they learned their eye and grip and breathing standing next to their fathers, uncles, and grandfathers, staring downrange at a buck or a turkey or a bullseye. In their hands were weapons which "goverment servants" didn't want them to have.

Weapons that will save lives and preserve freedoms.

[GeronL]

What city do you live in?

Anyways, I would assume the cops would be paid for the hours on the range and the time to get there and back.

[dasboot]

Well, I like to talk, warts n' all, about the job here..when appropriate; so I like to remain somewhat fuzzy about exactly which city I work in...never know when something I say will piss someone off; but it's one of the five largest cities in Massachusetts. Southeastern part.

And I don't live there. Fled to the coastal sticks a dozen years ago. The camel's back broke when I was checking on my pre-teen kids outside and saw a guy I arrested for really bad stuff chatting with them outside. Just a hello...but way more than enough. My wife was relieved, too: she really hated it the couple times I ran out of the house to arrest bad guys with warrants...only for major stuff, though. I wasn't that crazy. 2 to my 20..outta there. Going to be an ocean-hippy in a sailboat who sings coyboy songs for a living. :^)

[dasboot]

Oh yeah...If we get travel-time, the OT expense doubles, and were near a quarter mil. With ammo, maintenance, instructors?, etc, we're at around $300,000.+ That's if the facility already exists. Build one...talkin' half a million, I figure. Alotta dough: they'd say we're nuts! dough....nuts........dough...nuts.mmmmmmmm..doughnuts.

[punster]

One of my friends was a reserve police officer. He told me the police reserve were always a lot better shots than the regular officers. One problem some of the regular officer have is the see their gun as only a badge of office, not as a tool that may save their life and the lives of innocent people.

I know that none of them want to be in the position they have to kill a suspect. However, denying that possibility does not lead to being able to properly deal with confrontations. Missing the target is one consequence. The other consequence is panicking when things get ugly. Sometimes, the result is they shoot when it is not absolutely necessary. This fans the flames of hysteria about police brutality and improper use of force.

[GeronL]

Cowboy songs? Like Jimmy Rogers?... the Yodeling Hobo...

[Shooter 2.5]

I think every police station should have a range open to the public. That is if the area doesn't already have a public range in the vicinity.

The towns don't have a problem with ball parks so I think the extra revenue generated by renting the range to the public would more than pay for ammo for the officers.

The non-professionals could even help the officers learn a thing or two.

[dasboot]

I'll croon like Slim Whitman and Boxcar Willie if it pays the bills. My pension at 20 is pretty crummy, but I don't want to stick around for 35 years and die six months after I get off the job. It's true.

I'd rather play Robert Johnson, Leadbelly , Joe Pass, Steve Howe, Bach, Beatles, Kelt tearjerkers and old Nat Cole Trio stuff....what I did before I became da man...Funny: I've been singing Beatles tunes at some open mics at local pubs to get in gear for the change....the yoots never heard a lot of 'em and they think they're really cool...Dave Matthews be damned. I got a standin O for "I'll Get You in the End"...kid comes up and says, "Like , wow, do you have a record?")

BTW Reserves and auxilliaries are better at everything. :^)

[GeronL]

BUMP for oldies but goodies

[dasboot]

Might work in , say, New Hampshire or Texas...even Vermont (strange , ain't it); but pigs will fly before that happens here. A terrific idea, though. Too much for the Mass Dem MooPeople....but I'd like to see it. I'd also like to see less-infringed right to bear arms. *sigh* The three letters of recommendation, the rip-off training courses (some guys are charging over $200) and $100 fee are a bit much.

(See why I gotta be incognito? I can't get with the progressive program. Dad was from Idaho. Got the freedom gene.)

[stands2reason]

"Forty shots rang out


Forty people fell,


Patty and the Killer missed each other


but they shot that town to hell!"

[stands2reason]

Wow. I did not know that.

[absalom01]

"I will never, never attempt to clear a house by myself..."
EXACTLY!. If I had learned nothing else from playing with simuntions scenarios, this lesson would be worth the price of admission.

"That said, these guys need some serious range time."
Yup, agreed.

But, this is sounding more like glock talk than FreeRepublic at this point. Sorry, my bad.