Teen pulling prank killed by neighbor

The Palm Beach Post ^ | Sunday, October 26 | Sarah Eisenhauer and Cynthia Kopkowski

[pgobrien]

Mans laughter?

[SLB]

What say all of you?

IMHO the home owner probably over reacted, but none of us were there to see exactly what happened. The media is going to report this as liberally as possible. Was the kid shot in the back? No proof at this time, that will be established by a photo from the autopsy. Was there any instrument nearby which could easily ahve been mistaken for a weapon? I would hope I would wait until I felt an absolute threat, but considering the home owner had been wakened from sleep, how clearly was he thinking and reacting? I understand that when we take up arms the individual responsibility increases, I just hope the grand jury understands and reacts accordingly.

[FairOpinion]

"The boy was silly to be out ringing door bells at his age but he didn't deserve to die for it."

===

As an earlier poster aptly pointed out: "jay walkers don't deserve to die for it, but sometimes they do".

The point is the "kid" (I am actually getting tired of that excuse -- a 16 year old should know better and Malvo was a a 17 year old "kid", when he committed his deliberate sniping murders) could have lived a long happy life, if he didn't go knocking on the door in the middle of the night. And if he just "knocked and ran", he would have been long gone, by the time the homeowner opened the door. He engaged in something that put his own life at risk, and he lost. He made a wrong choice. Lot of people die for making the wrong choice at the wrong time. It's too bad, but it's a fact of life.

[beaversmom]

That's a good point--we can't rule out media bias here because we all know they hate guns and look for any reason to promote the cause. Strictly going by the facts presented here, I would side with he shouldn't have used deadly force but things may play out differently like you said.

[Fighter@heart]

"What is so important that you are defending that you need a gun?" EVERYTHING with-in the confines of my home that I've WORKED for and the lives of my family & myself, I guess that about covers it!!

[muawiyah]

The kids were ringing and running. There are other witnesses to their practice throughout the neighborhood.

If the kid was ringing and running, and the homeowner with the gun saw him face to face that would mean he was waiting for him to show up.

It is possible that as soon as the bell was rung the homeowner threw open the door and shot the kid as he was turning to run away.

That's a bit more than your typical second-degree murder.

If you think this guy was in the right, you might send him a donation or two, maybe sell your house and give him the proceeds. He's gonna' need it!

[Smokin' Joe]

I think that the shooter needs to be able to demonstrate that there was an immanent threat to his life or property beyond reasonable doubt. Otherwise, I think that the benefit of the doubt should run against him, and he should be made an example of to people who have no business owning guns.

The only way to show beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a threat is to wake up dead or hospitalized in the morning.

The standard in my state (ND) is such that the use of lethal force be predicated on reasonable belief that the shooter is acting to avoid serious bodily injury or death, or intervening on behalf of a third party to prevent serious bodily injury to or death of that party. Even if the shooter is wrong about the situation, the reasonable belief becomes an affirmative defense.

Here, the question becomes one of 'Did the man believe he was being seriously threatened?'. We do not know if the man had recieved death threats, owed his bookie, etc. and felt this was the 'enforcer' come to collect.

It is a shame that the kid paid with his life for the stupidity of rousting people after midnight. The shooter will probably lose everything in a civil suit, even if he is acquitted.

As for shooting in the back, I didn't see in the article where anyone stated with certainty that this was the case.

[beaversmom]

I'm in Colorado too. I was cleaning out my car the other day and found a toothpick and my dad shouted at me--"You shouldn't have that in the car! What if you got stopped by the police!?!" Of course he was joking but he does believe the police around here in Denver are trigger happy. He still goes on about the Truax case.

[longtermmemmory]

with all respect to your children and grandchildren, I have seen more than enough of such "good boys" tried and convicted as adults in the criminal courts. They all have mothers who come to court and say this or that was harmless or he just fell into a bad crowd.

His intent is the issue. Knocking/ringing/banging on a strangers door is suspect.

From a mischieviou "yout" I would say michief would dictate rining the bell and running away FAST!

[Badray]

Your screen name is most appropriate. Good analysis.

[laredo44]

And if he was just standing there, how on earth did he get shot in the back? Too many questions.

If he was shot in the back. Yes, there is more unknown than known right now. It won't surprise me if there's some history of bad blood between this family and the shooter. Not saying there is, just that there might be.

[lifacs]

Furthermore, the man's name is released, and curiously, even the value of his house

Think of the Palm Beach Post as a mirror image of the New York Times. They will eventually spin it into something like "See, even CCW permit holders can't handle guns correctly."

Not only was the man's name released, three pictures accompanied the story in the actual newpaper. A picture of his house, looks like it could be one of those zero lot line subdivision. A picture of a map of where his house is located and a picture of the boy shot (caucasian).

[xusafflyer]

"I think the homeowner should have yelled out, "I've got a gun that I'm not afraid to use in one hand and a phone that I'm using to dial 911 in the other--get off my property now!"

You never do this. You just gave away your position if the burglar is armed. Your house walls will not stop the bullet coming towards you.

[longtermmemmory]

FL requires that pedestrians use marked and signaled intersections where available. Those hit in the middle of a block when that type of intersection intersection is available are generally SOL.

[NittanyLion]

Do we know the race of the parties?

Does it change the facts of this case? I thought as conservatives we're supposed to be colorblind.

[muawiyah]

Hey, along with all those suits against the family of the kid he shot, maybe he should put up a locking gate at the entrance to his property, remove his door bell so that no one is improperly led to the idea that they are welcome, and finally, post his property to warn off the unwary.

The fact that he has a door-bell means he welcomed visitors and bid them to let him know they were there so that he could come and spread his beneficence.

In this case he betrayed the trust folks had placed in him to abide by civilized norms. He's gonna' pay big time. Do they use "old sparky" down there or is it just an injection? Anybody know?

[Smokin' Joe]

Agreed--especially the last line. Here in ND you have to score 100% on the legal test, but not all your shots have to be in the 10 ring on the practical. That hammers home what is at stake legally. The bottom line is that you don't want to kill any innocents, by accident or design.

[longtermmemmory]

The FL CCW class actually recomends you do this. Those words were specifically NOT recomended as they say you are scared. It was suggested you state "STOP, I have a gun." Just FYI as to what is said in class.

[Hillary's Lovely Legs]

On New Year's Eve my cousin was dropped off by a friend at around 3am. He lived in a condo and they all looked the same. His friend dropped him off at the wrong condo and my cousin tried his key in the door. When it didn't work, he left. He was then shot in the back by a shotgun by the owner. He was found dead on the front lawn in the morning.

[beaversmom]

I understand your point but I guess I'm not so c'est la vie about the boy's life looking at the facts as presented in the article (which I've already acknowledged may not be complete or accurate). I'm sure the guy being a gun owner had his door locked so he had a couple of seconds/minutes to think about his course of action. The article may not be accurate and maybe it will come out the boy was a punk with a history of harrassing this guy, but I don't think it's going to come out that he was actually in the house. The way I'm looking at it right now, the homeowner had a few seconds to think. My dad is a gun owner and I've had to make a couple late night trips knocking at his door. He would never shoot first and ask questions later even if it was someone he didn't recognize that was knocking at his door late.