Is Terri Schiavo Dead? Eat, drink, and vegetate

Reason ^ | 10-23-03 | Ronald Bailey

[ambrose]

October 23, 2003

Is Terri Schiavo Dead?

Eat, drink, and vegetate

Ronald Bailey

Terri Schiavo has been in a persistent vegetative state since 1990. Her husband wants to withdraw the nutrition and hydration her body has been receiving and allow her body to die. Her mother, father, and sister—and now Florida Governor Jeb Bush—want to continue supplying her body with food and water until... what? She wakes up? Dies of pneumonia?

What is a persistent vegetative state? According to the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke people in PVS "have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands." People suffering from PVS can generally be distinguished from afflicted but cognitively intact patients who suffer from "locked-in syndrome" by the fact that "locked in" patients can track visual stimuli and use eye blinks for communication.

According to most neurological experts, Terri Schiavo is definitely PVS—her eyes do not really track visual stimuli and she cannot communicate using eye blinks. However, Terri Schiavo's parents have posted several short ambiguous video clips online which are meant to show that Ms. Schiavo responds to stimuli. But what they show seems to fit an AMA's report of how PVS patients can respond to environmental cues without being aware. Specifically, the report notes, "Despite an 'alert demeanor', observation and examination repeatedly fail to demonstrate coherent speech, comprehension of the words of examiners or attendants, or any capacity to initiate or make consistently purposeful movements. Movements are largely confined to reflex withdrawals or posturing in response to noxious or other external stimuli. Since neither visual nor auditory signals require cortical integrity to stimulate brief orienting reflexes, some vegetative patients may turn the head or dart the eyes toward a noise or moving objects. However, PVS patients neither fixate upon nor consistently follow moving objects with the eyes, nor do they show other than startle responses to loud stimuli. They blink when air movements stimulate the cornea but not in the presence of visual threats per se."

Ms. Schiavo has been in this state for 13 years. What are her chances of recovering at least some awareness? Minnesota neurologist Ronald Cranford told the Washington Post, "There has never been a documented case of someone recovering after having been in a persistent vegetative state for more than 3 months. However, the journal Brain Injury reported the case, of a 26-year-old woman who, after being diagnosed as suffering from a persistent vegetative state for six months, recovered consciousness and, though severely disabled, is largely cognitively intact. However, it is generally agreed that if a patient doesn't become responsive before six months, his or her prognosis is extremely poor. A report on PVS by the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council finds that "patients in a state of post-coma unresponsiveness may emerge from it to become responsive," that "the probability of emergence becomes progressively less over time," and that "there is general agreement that emergence is less likely in older people, and in the victims of hypoxic brain damage." Terri Schiavo is the way she is because oxygen was cut off to her brain for 14 minutes; in other words, she suffered severe hypoxic brain damage.

So is Terri Schiavo still alive? The odds are way against it. It's time that her long-suffering parents and the grandstanding politicians let her go in peace.

[Gringo1]

No.

Whatch out, I mught change forms!

[Gringo1]

Is the word GHOUL supposed to be insulting?

I would have thought that the god squad could find a better one, it is a bit mild. Of course, that would be giving you mindless robots alot more credit than you deserve.

[supercat]

Unplug her, if God wants her to live, she will.

Is there any documented instance of anyone, anywhere, ever surviving more than 41 days without both food and water?

[Gringo1]

"Is there any documented instance of anyone, anywhere, ever surviving more than 41 days without both food and water?"

I don't know, but if god wants her to live like the god squad says, then god might send a bird or something to feed her. Or he might cure her through the use of a miracle.

But I don't really think that is what they want. They want an issue that puts them in the spotlight so they can say that their belief system overrides the rule of law and that this is a christian nation and a christian government, and nobody is allowed to die under any circumstances other than in the guidlines set by them.

(Basically, it is the same thing the terrorist muslims want, but in a nicer costume)

[supercat]

I don't know, but if god wants her to live like the god squad says, then god might send a bird or something to feed her. Or he might cure her through the use of a miracle.

Well, since she's been forbidden all efforts at oral feeding, sending a bird wouldn't do much good unless it could get past her guards. And even if she were substantially cured, MarMena has posted of cases in which people who were quite capable of asking for food were nonetheless denied because they were judged incompetant to make such medical decisions.

I believe in miracles, but subtle ones. If a bus is racing out of control down a mountain road, God might impart just a smidgin of horizontal momentum to keep the bus on the road when it would otherwise have gone down the cliff, but he's not going to suddenly turn the bus into an airplane.

[Gringo1]

That ought to get the GHOUL-callers out in force today.
I need my morning fix of good christian hatred.

I think GHOUL has about the same impact as calling someone 4-eyes, more humorous to see such a limited insult vocabulary than hurtful. It's like watching 2 downs syndrome kids trying to assemble an automatic transmission......just sad.

[Gringo1]

That might be the most reasoned response that I have gotten on this thread. Thank you for making a good point without nastiness.

[supercat]

That might be the most reasoned response that I have gotten on this thread. Thank you for making a good point without nastiness.

Thanks. I would, btw, further posit that there have been miracles in this case, such as the fact that enough people have come together to soften a few hearts in the Florida legislature, and the fact that Terri has survived over 150 hours of dehydration.

Someone who removes a feeding tube while simultaneously forbidding any effort at oral feeding is seeking to choose, unambiguously and within a fairly narrow timeframe, the time at which a person will die. Such treatment will kill any person, regardless of prior health.

Supplying food and water will not keep alive someone whom God wants to "call home". Their denial, is guaranteed to kill anyone. Which course of action represents "playing God"?

[MEGoody]

"Unplug her, if God wants her to live, she will."

Unplugging someone who appears brain dead or completely comatose from a respirator is quite different from withholding food and water from someone where there is disagreement just how conscious the patient is.

If a person were to become quadraplegic and could no longer feed him/herself, would you say "Set the food in front of them, if they can feed themselves, they live. If not they die." I doubt you would.

Simply being unable to feed oneself seems a rather callous measurement as to whether they should live or die.

[Gringo1]

I've stated the difference between Terri Schiavo and a qudrapeligic numerous times. The argument is stupid and presumptive at the least.

[MEGoody]

"I've stated the difference between Terri Schiavo and a qudrapeligic numerous times."

Maybe you did explain your view of the difference. I don't see a difference. If Terry were brain dead, that would be one thing. She isn't.

[Normally a Lurker]

I wish that I had noticed this thread a week or so ago, before I noticed and began to participate in a myriad of other 'Terri topic' threads at this site. The discussion here seems both more objective and more well thought through (by those on both sides of the issue) than I have seen demonstrated in the numerous 'save Terri' threads at this site.

Having said that, I'd like to refer the various posters in this thread to the following link, wherein I posted an invitation to any and all to participate in a private discussion of this topic with me. For complex reasons briefly explained in that post, I am longer participating in the open discussions of this 'Terri topic' at this site.

[As just a side note: So far I have had no takers on the invitation to a private discussion of the topic.)

[Gringo1]

It is another gun control/abortion type topic. We just vent. You never can change anyones mind on it.

[Normally a Lurker]

Agreed - at least generally. I don't really expect to change anyones mind - only they can do that.

But, given the vast number of people discussing this, there may be a few, on the edge, whose mind may be open to change.

OTOH, you're most likely right, at least it's unlikely to happen HERE.