Is Terri Schiavo Dead? Eat, drink, and vegetate

Reason ^ | 10-23-03 | Ronald Bailey

[ambrose]

October 23, 2003

Is Terri Schiavo Dead?

Eat, drink, and vegetate

Ronald Bailey

Terri Schiavo has been in a persistent vegetative state since 1990. Her husband wants to withdraw the nutrition and hydration her body has been receiving and allow her body to die. Her mother, father, and sister—and now Florida Governor Jeb Bush—want to continue supplying her body with food and water until... what? She wakes up? Dies of pneumonia?

What is a persistent vegetative state? According to the National Institute for Neurological Disorders and Stroke people in PVS "have lost their thinking abilities and awareness of their surroundings, but retain non-cognitive function and normal sleep patterns. Even though those in a persistent vegetative state lose their higher brain functions, other key functions such as breathing and circulation remain relatively intact. Spontaneous movements may occur, and the eyes may open in response to external stimuli. They may even occasionally grimace, cry, or laugh. Although individuals in a persistent vegetative state may appear somewhat normal, they do not speak and they are unable to respond to commands." People suffering from PVS can generally be distinguished from afflicted but cognitively intact patients who suffer from "locked-in syndrome" by the fact that "locked in" patients can track visual stimuli and use eye blinks for communication.

According to most neurological experts, Terri Schiavo is definitely PVS—her eyes do not really track visual stimuli and she cannot communicate using eye blinks. However, Terri Schiavo's parents have posted several short ambiguous video clips online which are meant to show that Ms. Schiavo responds to stimuli. But what they show seems to fit an AMA's report of how PVS patients can respond to environmental cues without being aware. Specifically, the report notes, "Despite an 'alert demeanor', observation and examination repeatedly fail to demonstrate coherent speech, comprehension of the words of examiners or attendants, or any capacity to initiate or make consistently purposeful movements. Movements are largely confined to reflex withdrawals or posturing in response to noxious or other external stimuli. Since neither visual nor auditory signals require cortical integrity to stimulate brief orienting reflexes, some vegetative patients may turn the head or dart the eyes toward a noise or moving objects. However, PVS patients neither fixate upon nor consistently follow moving objects with the eyes, nor do they show other than startle responses to loud stimuli. They blink when air movements stimulate the cornea but not in the presence of visual threats per se."

Ms. Schiavo has been in this state for 13 years. What are her chances of recovering at least some awareness? Minnesota neurologist Ronald Cranford told the Washington Post, "There has never been a documented case of someone recovering after having been in a persistent vegetative state for more than 3 months. However, the journal Brain Injury reported the case, of a 26-year-old woman who, after being diagnosed as suffering from a persistent vegetative state for six months, recovered consciousness and, though severely disabled, is largely cognitively intact. However, it is generally agreed that if a patient doesn't become responsive before six months, his or her prognosis is extremely poor. A report on PVS by the Australian National Health and Medical Research Council finds that "patients in a state of post-coma unresponsiveness may emerge from it to become responsive," that "the probability of emergence becomes progressively less over time," and that "there is general agreement that emergence is less likely in older people, and in the victims of hypoxic brain damage." Terri Schiavo is the way she is because oxygen was cut off to her brain for 14 minutes; in other words, she suffered severe hypoxic brain damage.

So is Terri Schiavo still alive? The odds are way against it. It's time that her long-suffering parents and the grandstanding politicians let her go in peace.

[tutstar]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1009193/posts
did you see this?

[HiTech RedNeck]

Sure looks like they spent $50K worth of effort (socking the whole bill to him) to find $2K worth of trouble. Assuming the fine part was maybe quadruple what he gained, Hammesfahr must have hawked, what, $500 worth of stuff? In a multi-hundred-thousand-dollar practice? Boy this dude must be a consummate fraud [/sarcasm]

[Diddley]

Your granddaughter sounds kind of like my dear son. He laughs with his whole body. What a blessing he is to us. If others can't see it, then they are the ones missing out!

Thank you for your sentiments.

Yes. Even though the children may not "speak", they can certainly communicate.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[drlevy88]

I understand Medicare doesn't cover this (yet) as still investigational. So that can't be a factor.

I saw an article some time back that claimed the brain actually does grow new cortex cells even though it can't regenerate large regions. If it does, and Terri's brain has any of these cells still left alive, seems to me the blood flow treatment could in principle have some small positive effect by helping it happen faster.

In the absence of proof (rather than theorizing or arguing from silence of the record) that Dr. H's approach WON'T do any good, it's perhaps premature to say it CAN'T. I'd say if folks are willing to contribute the funding, then let Dr. H, quackery suspicions and all, go ahead and try to make a name for himself through this. She could hardly get worse.

[drlevy88]

I [now] understand Medicare doesn't cover this (yet) as still investigational...

[Gringo1]

This may be the most retarded thing I have ever read here:

"As for the feeding tubes, I am aware it is not a matter for me to decide, but it is also not a matter for YOU to decide. We are simply stating personal opinions and beliefs and I just can not wrap my mind around starving a person to death because you deem her life to be of no worth. YOU don't know if she dreams or has thoughts and feelings. I just know that as long as that possibility exists she deserves to have the opportunity to have sustenance. It is far from disingenuous, it is the TRUTH. Ever had an operation? Did they put you to sleep? Give you oxygen? Should they have turned it off because you could not carry on a viable conversation while asleep?"

1) I never said her life is of no worth, merely that her "life" ended 13 years ago....nice way to make stuff up and call it the truth.
2)I never said it was my choice whether she lives or dies, I merely stated that it is her legal guardians choice....in this case her husband and not Jerry Falwell or Jeb Bush.
3)No, I don't know if she has feelings......and neither do you.
4)Only an ape could make an analogy about having an operation being the same as being in a PVS.....never has a longer reach been made while trying to make a lucid point....congratulations!
5)"your hands are tied by the "husbands" cold, insensitive directives (and quite possibly is motivated to make decisions based on a need to hide facts)"
More wild conjecture,heresay, and horseshit.....were you wearing your tinfoil hat when you wrote this?
6)"What I said was that it is NO ONE'S RIGHT to decide her fate but HERS!!!!"
She can't.....she is in a PVS. If she could decide, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
7)"Finally, as for the persecution of Christians"
If you were being persecuted, you would have a lion nibbling on your torso right now....paranoid?
Nothing like a nice,inflammatory term like"persecution" to stir those feelings of dread, huh?

The rest of your rant was just a low humming noise in the background.

[huck von finn]

He is one PROBATION as of 10/27/2003

Calpernia, that reads "DATA as of 10/27/2003"

If you look at it today, it says "DATA as of 10/28/2003"

Read carefully. He has been on probation since February of 1988, and his probation extends until 2005.

[First_Salute]

On Glenn Beck's radio show, Oct. 28, 2003, the Schindlers' attorney, Pat Anderson, stated that Terri Schiavo has not had any therapy since the fall of 1991.

[Deep_6]

 

If she had a living will, we most likely would not be talking
about her now and likely no-one would have heard of her.
Although.... her quite affluent parents might have contested 
her very own words contained in her very own living will,
since they do appear to be very strong willed regarding 
Terri's state [or lack of] and refuse to listen to the more
obvious arguments from quite well renown physicians.

In Florida, any device that is used to provide a life sustaining
condition, is the same. That is: a respirator is no different
than "a feeding tube", if the patient will die without it's use.
The test [of course] is if the patient can ever live without the
device. Sort term and temporary use of any device does not
lend itself to legally declare the user as "terminal".

The ranting you read on FR regarding "a feeding tube is not
the same as _________", is not founded on fact; not founded
in Florida law and not an assumption to be taken as valid in
any court; any state.

A "good lawyer" doesn't convince anyone of anything.
In a life or death situation as this, the judge weighs heavily on
medical facts and physician's opinions. In Terri's case, both
were conclusive. Terri's cerebral cortex is gone and the cavity
filled with spinal fluid. It can not be repaired and Terri will not
ever be any different than she is today. That was noted 13 years
ago; not one thing has changed.

Terri's parents would like her to live forever and do not accept
her death. To sit for hours waiting for what will look like a response
to their beckoning,  when her "response" is nothing more than
a movement she's made countless times during those hours without
their beckoning... To consider that movement as a response and
proof as a reason to continue with her life support system.... To
provide an excerpted home movie for the court, and think the
court should take it seriously, is ludicrous.

It's been over 13 years. Terri's husband, degenerated slob or not,
was not able to withhold the truth of Terri's condition if it were
any different than it is now.

She is in a vegetated state and will remain in that state, as long
as she is forcibly kept alive.

Please allow me to say that again:

She is in a vegetated state and will remain in that state,
as long as she is forcibly kept alive.

Isn't it time to stop using her as a political football and
give her poor spirit a rest?

[MEGoody]

"With that reasoning, God must want the victims of murder to die (because if God did not want them dead, they would not be)."

Not quite the same thing. With a murder (as Mikey Schiavo is attempting), there is an outright act of an individual to take the life of another. God does allow that, although He doesn't cause it. But when one is making an effort to maintain life, e.g. feeding yourself or another, God can end that life regardless of man's best efforts, if He so chooses. In other words, if God wanted Terri dead, she'd be dead.

"But whatever, the evidence is that Terri is already dead in mind"

Dead in mind means no brain activity. Terri has brain activity, friend, so you are wrong.

[MEGoody]

"With that reasoning, God must want the victims of murder to die (because if God did not want them dead, they would not be)."

Not quite the same thing. With a murder (as Mikey Schiavo is attempting), there is an outright act of an individual to take the life of another. God does allow that, although He doesn't cause it. But when one is making an effort to maintain life, e.g. feeding yourself or another, God can end that life regardless of man's best efforts, if He so chooses. In other words, if God wanted Terri dead, she'd be dead.

"But whatever, the evidence is that Terri is already dead in mind"

Dead in mind means no brain activity. Terri has brain activity, friend, so you are wrong.

[Legerdemain]

laws have and are being broken in this case....get with it The PR campaign by Schiavo and Felos is in full swing.... opinion has little to do with this, but looks like yours does..... don't let Larry King and the papers spoon feed you

I do not watch Larry King, and I make up my own mind....again...the godsquad assumes to know me....strange

[Gringo1]

Unplug her, if God wants her to live, she will. I think alot of people are afraid of this simple test of faith(or about being wrong about what they say God wants for Terri Schiavo).
( pssst....you have an out tho...you can always say that god took her home if she dies)

Anyway, many people seem to be afraid that Terri Schiavo will be starved to death, but forget the fact that starving herself got her here in the first place. So how is it okay if she starves herself into a CVS and not okay if she is starved out of one?(I personally think a overdose of morphine would be much more humane, but I don't write the law these days....and good thing too)

Equating this with murder is all a matter of personal opinion, there will not be any murder charges when all is said and done.....plenty of murder accusations and shrieking....but no charges.

[Gringo1]

"I do not watch Larry King, and I make up my own mind....again...the godsquad assumes to know me....strange"


It is funny to me that people who never watch Larry King on any other subject because he is "sooooo liberal" will take items from that very same show and strut it out here like a streetwalker to try to prove their case.But it has to fit their agenda.

Just your "hypocrisy moment" for today.

[Legerdemain]

I agree, this type of hypocrisy makes me happy to be a Libertarian. Most of these people on this thread should reexamine their political philosophy..

[Legerdemain]

ok, it is time to stop the maddness...I propose a new approach,

We have 2 other approaches on the matter that have not been discussed.

1.Do the Disney/Williams approach. Freeze dry her untill medical science can "cure" her.

2. Clone her. In 30 years she will be as good as new.

However, the godsquad could not even agreee with #1 as it may take centuries or more to possible find a cure, and they believe we are in the last days.

They could not agree with #2 as it would be an affront to god, even though in their argument, god would have created the clone.

There are others but I am going to get flamed in my private mail already.

[newgeezer]

Major Tornado in Alabama! ^
Posted by Gringo1

On 10/28/2003 4:19 PM CST with 1 comment

15 Million dollars of improvements! University of Alabama library destroyed....both books lost to twister...one had not been colored in yet. Governors mansion cathes fire in wake of massive twister, burns down to the axles!

Did something snap?

[Gringo1]

I notice you left off the </humor> tag...pretty typical to edit something to fit a preconcieved notion.

It is called humor. look it up your dictionary. We Georgians are forever trading barbs with Alabama.

Of course, good natured humor has no place in the uptight world,huh?

[Armed Civilian]

Hello statue. So would you have pulled the trigger on Randy Weavers wife. I do appreciate your service to our country, I want you to know that.

[Gringo1]

2. Clone her. In 30 years she will be as good as new.


What if you cloned her and you ended up with 2 PVS Terri Schiavos? We would have to quit our jobs to counter the nonsense here.