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To: Travis McGee
A little gun trivia is in order here. Did you know that Remmington manufactured many Mosin-Nagant rifles for Russia in this period? That's pretty cool, US made Russian weapons. Also the Savage Model 99 was issued to Russians (In 7.62x54 I believe) which is one the only times a lever action was issued to a military. (Some were used by various US units too I suppose, but famously Custer didn't have 'em and Crazy Horse did) .
127 posted on 10/21/2003 12:16:17 PM PDT by Jack Black
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To: Jack Black
A little gun trivia is in order here. Did you know that Remmington manufactured many Mosin-Nagant rifles for Russia in this period? That's pretty cool, US made Russian weapons. Also the Savage Model 99 was issued to Russians (In 7.62x54 I believe) which is one the only times a lever action was issued to a military. (Some were used by various US units too I suppose, but famously Custer didn't have 'em and Crazy Horse did) .

Not quite. Westinghouse also built the Model 91 Mosin-Nagant rifles for the Czar's forces, as did Chattelerault of France; many were rebuilt by the Finns between the First and Second World Wars into their military configuration as one of the most accurate military weapons ever fielded. The Communist Revolution brought a halt of the shipments to the new Bolshivik regime's forces, and the things were accepted as a limited standard model for issue to the U.S. Army as the *Rifle, model 1918*; I have one so marked.

Following the pause after the Armistice, the new Soviet government collected and disposed of many of the American built weapons, not for any technical deficiency, but as both an embarrasing reminder on unsuccessful interferance in things Russian, ans as an opportunity for the new management to improve on the rifle's design and manufacturing methodology: The Model 91/30 was the result, produced in at least a few million examples.

But the lever-action rifle more commonly used by the Russians was the Winchester Model 1895, which unlike the Savage, could be loaded with a 5-shot charger *stripper clip* and was fitted for a bayonet. The rifle favoured by President Roosevelt was the same model, sharing the same action though in a more sporterized configurization and in a chambering with the bottleneck of the cartridge straightened out to take a .45 bullet better suited for western elk, moose and bears.

Neither were Crazy Horse's forces at the Greasy Grass overly equipped with repeating rifles, though there were a few; go there some time and you'll quickly catch on why the bow and arrow was the real killer that day. That Russian interest in the Winchester lever actions came after their introduction to them at the battle of Plevna against the Turks. Mostly armed with single-shot The Russian infantry was equipped with the single-shot .60 caliber Krnka breechloader and their rifle brigades used the more modern American designed .42 cal. Berdan rifle; the Turks had the excellent American .45 caliber Peabody-Martini. And had ordered as many as 10,000 Winchester repeaters and placed them in the hands of selected troops.

On July 18th, 1877, the ball began, with Russian cavalry and troops taking Turkish trench fortifications under fire and maneuvering into the best positions for an attack, then did so. The exchange of fire that resulted was pretty much in accordance with the expoectations of the day until the Russians reached a range of about 200 meters, at which point the Turkish defenders switched their Martinis for the Winchesters, and let 'er rip.

The Turks had purchased between 40 to 60 million rounds of ammunition from Winchester. In the first 15 minute or so firefight that followed, the Russians lost some 3000 men, against a Turkish casualty total of 12 killed and 30 wounded. The Russian tactic proved to be to marshal more forces for an overwhelming attack while the Turks continued improving their positions and reinforced their troop strength. On 30 July, the Russians attacked with 26,000 men, and reportedly began taking casualties at 3000 yards. When it was over their losses were reported as 169 officers and 7,136 men, 30 percent of the force theirt General Krudner sent into the battle.

The not particularly original response was to reinforce their badly-stung troops and try again, beginning with a 4-day artillery bombardment. On September 7th the cannon began, to continue singing until September 11th, the Turks reported virtually no casualties or irreparable damage to their positions. The Turks were quite correct on this matter. Infantry in zig-zag trenches 15 inches wide could not be effectively harmed by shrapnel from shells that exploded in the ground. Only a direct hit could kill and wound, and then only in that immediate trench area. The Russians attacked again, this time suffering 12,500 men and 300 officers killed and their Romanian allies taking 56 officer and 2500 enlisted casualties. The following day Russian General Skobeleff managed to gain the only small bright spot of success that day by committing his 15,000 men against the Turkish southeastern redoubts Numbers 14 and 15 and, after sustaining severe losses, managed to occupy these two that were nearest to the center of the town.

While all the other allied forces were retreating with heavy losses for the day, Skobeleff hung on for 24 hours, pleading for reinforcements that never arrived. On the afternoon of Sept. 12th, he reluctantly evacuated these redoubts, having sustained casualties of 53 percent (8,000 men). This, then, marked the end of the Third (and final) Battle of Plevna, but not the end of fighting in the area.

No problem for the Turks. Now that they knew for a certainty that the newfangled repeaters had a usable military value, The Turkish High Command placed an immediate order with Winchester for another 140,000 repeating rifles, and something short of 500,000,000 rounds of ammunition; their tactics at Plevna had been developed to the point that they could deliver 20,000 shots per minute to bear upon the area being assailed.

These gen­erals had no need for further tests and trials. They knew what worked.

More on the Battles of Plevna [from which I cribbed much of the above] *here*.

-archy-/-

138 posted on 10/21/2003 1:08:25 PM PDT by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Jack Black
I forgot that! Pretty cool! Maybe the Russian Nagant the fictional Ian Kelby used in my book was made in the USA, and returned after a long and circuitous path!

And the idea of Russians with lever actions is just cool as heck!

144 posted on 10/21/2003 1:39:09 PM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Jack Black
Did you know that Remington manufactured many Mosin-Nagant rifles for Russia in this period?

I had a New England Westinghouse 1915. Got it for $40.00 ten years ago. Best forty dollar gun I ever had.

159 posted on 10/21/2003 4:28:24 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4 (Gunner, HEAT, ATGM . . .Identified. . .FIRE . . . On the Way . . . BOOM . . . Target, cease fire)
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