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‘Engaging’ Traps More Collectors
Shotgun News ^ | Oct. 20 | Neal Knox

Posted on 10/16/2003 10:42:46 AM PDT by El Gato

NEAL KNOX REPORT

‘Engaging’ Traps More Collectors

By Neal Knox

WASHINGTON, D.C. (Oct. 20) – Eight St. Louis area collectors were indicted Sept. 28 for “engaging in the gun business” without a Federal Firearms License. They are the latest victims in the 40-year battle over the fuzzy definition of who must have an FFL.

Vaguely defined “unlicensed dealing” carries more severe punishment than some willful violations by licensed dealers – plus the potential forfeiture of every gun in a collection, and the loss of gun ownership rights, firearms hunting rights, and often even voting rights – for life.

In addition to the ruinous legal costs of fighting a felony offense punishable by up to five years imprisonment and $250,000 fine, the St. Louis collectors – five of them 60 to 79 years old – have had 572 firearms seized.

Their guns were already the subjects of civil forfeiture suits. And the criminal indictments also demand their forfeiture – including antiques which are not subject to the Gun Control Act.

The grand jury also indicted a licensed dealer for allegedly selling at gun shows without maintaining required records or conducting background checks – something clearly forbidden in BATF instructions, but only as a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year imprisonment and/or $100,000 fine.

The nine indictments are the result of a year-long BATF investigation in which undercover agents traveled to gun shows in other states to buy and sell guns.

The eight collectors are in a Catch-22. They do not qualify for an FFL under the laws and regulations imposed during the Clinton Administration, which upped the $10 annual license to $500 and required licensees to have a locally sanctioned business with special security systems and regular hours.

Those changes succeeded in meeting President Clinton’s stated goal of reducing the number of dealers – which dropped from about 260,000 to less than 60,000.

Because of those more stringent rules for obtaining a license, the gray area between buying and selling guns as a hobby, and not for “livelihood and profit,” has broadened.

James Martin, lawyer for one of the indicted men, 69-year-old Caesar Gaglio, told the St. Louis Post-Dispatch his client is a collector who did not need a license for the relatively few guns he sold. BATF had purchased seven guns from him at gun shows over a five month period. At a later show agents observed him at a table “with about 10 handguns and six long guns for sale.”

Martin said Gaglio “has a large personal collection and he has been retired. He has sufficient income from his pension and investments to support himself.” He was not trying to make his “livelihood” from gun sales, Martin said. The law exempts from the license requirement anyone who “makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement for a personal collection or for a hobby …”

In the raid on another indicted man, Elmer Pigg, 79, agents seized 138 guns and “$18,770 … derived from illicit gun sales,” according to BATF.

The BATF and its predecessors have always opposed any objective standard of what constitutes an “illicit gun sale” – as opposed to unlicensed buying and selling for the purpose of enhancing a personal collection, which is specifically authorized in the law.

At the 1968 NRA convention in Boston, officials from BATF’s predecessor, the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Unit of the Internal Revenue Service, discussed what constituted “engaging in the firearms business” at a crowded NRA Gun Collectors Committee Meeting.

The Midwest Region ATTU director considered the dividing line six gun sales in a year. The head of Boston ATTU contended two sales made a person a dealer. (That guy later charged a Fall River, Mass. memorial group with failure to register the 16-inch guns on the Battleship Massachusetts.)

Significantly, the ATTU official from Washington declined to give an objective definition, saying “dealing” should be decided on a case-by-case basis.

In 1979, while I was NRA-ILA Director, we copied the McClure-Volkmer bill’s definition of “engaging in business” directly from a landmark court case. At BATF’s insistence, that definition was fuzzed before the remnants of the bill passed in 1986.

What so often happens in cases of “unlicensed dealing” is that the accused cannot afford the legal costs to fight the case, and agrees to a single felony offense – losing all gun ownership rights – and forfeiting many thousands of dollars worth of guns. Those cases “make law,” further encouraging BATF.

The St. Louis indictments are the type of precedent-setting cases that caused us to create the NRA Firearms Civil Rights Legal Defense Fund in 1978 – which I hope will assist these cases.

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TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2amd; 2ndamendment; bang; banglist; batf; guns; rkba
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It's like something out of Ross's "Unintended Consequences". Same general location even. Frightening.
1 posted on 10/16/2003 10:42:46 AM PDT by El Gato
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To: Joe Brower; Travis McGee
SCARY PING
2 posted on 10/16/2003 10:46:15 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim (There's two kinds of people in the world. Those with loaded guns and those that dig.)
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To: *bang_list; AAABEST; wku man; SLB; Travis McGee; Squantos; harpseal; Shooter 2.5; ...
Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!
3 posted on 10/16/2003 10:50:32 AM PDT by Joe Brower ("If you need a lawyer to tell you what your rights are, you don't have any rights.")
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To: El Gato
Here's another one from Knox to get your blood boiling:

http://www.shotgunnews.com/knox/knox.dog?file=2003102.htm&tissue=2003102

Balitimore Police Swat Team raid the home of 60 year old handloader, with only his 71 year old wife at home. Bust down the door the with an Ax. Man is now held without bond, for the *misdemeanor* charges of: (1) possession of more than five pounds of smokeless propellant, (2) not stored in its “original shipping container,” and (3) three counts of “reckless endangerment,” based on the complaints of three people who live next door and who wrongly believe that much powder (62 pounds) could blow up the entire neighborhood.

There's lots more to be incensed about, so go read the article.
4 posted on 10/16/2003 10:52:47 AM PDT by El Gato (Federal Judges can twist the Constitution into anything.. Or so they think.)
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To: El Gato
I'm glad Ashcroft is such a 2nd Amendment friendly AG. < /sarcasm>
5 posted on 10/16/2003 11:01:23 AM PDT by jmc813 (Ron Paul for President in '08!)
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To: El Gato
So, if I decide to sell my collection, I'm going to jail? It is just like "Unintended Consequences"...I wonder when the revolution begins?

I went outside with my rifle in hand, ready to do battle but I didn't see my neighbor doing the same thing. So I guess it isn't time yet.
6 posted on 10/16/2003 11:01:39 AM PDT by hattend
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To: El Gato
The "F" in BATFE needs to be completely de-funded!

This is ridiculous; collectors in other hobbies have small fortunes in antiques, sports collectables, etc. Why should firearms be any different? And why would the BATFE have any right to seize “antiques [firearms] which are not subject to the Gun Control Act.”

I have a sport fishing boat and maybe forty or fifty fishing rods, should I be jailed for trading, selling and buying new tackle as suits me?
7 posted on 10/16/2003 11:02:51 AM PDT by El Laton Caliente
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To: El Laton Caliente
You're going to have to torch those flyroods, bud as they could do some serious damage to some trout.
8 posted on 10/16/2003 11:18:52 AM PDT by oyez
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To: hattend
You do bring up a problem. How would one liquidate a collection legally if needed for say medical bills or some emergency?

My mother handled an estate sale for some fellow church members a while back for no compensation, is she now a criminal?
9 posted on 10/16/2003 11:20:25 AM PDT by El Laton Caliente
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To: El Laton Caliente
And why would the BATFE have any right to seize “antiques [firearms] which are not subject to the Gun Control Act.”

They don't ... but that never stopped a fed from abusing power by committing robbery under color of law.

10 posted on 10/16/2003 11:35:31 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (Virtue untested is innocence)
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To: Joe Brower
Joe, I'm saving this one in case my blood pressure ever falls to a dangerously low level. Damn, this pisses me off.

I'm not sure what 'time' it is, Claire, but I know it's getting late.
11 posted on 10/16/2003 11:35:37 AM PDT by Badray (Molon Labe!)
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To: El Gato
Don't all these accused still enjoy the Constitutional right of trial by jury?
I would be the best juror you ever saw, were I called into that jury panel.

I defy anyone to predict a conviction.

12 posted on 10/16/2003 11:39:20 AM PDT by Publius6961 (40% of Californians are as dumb as a sack of rocks.)
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To: El Laton Caliente
"My mother handled an estate sale for some fellow church members a while back for no compensation, is she now a criminal?"

A friend of mine sold off his father's collection after he died. 150+ pieces. The atf told him that he needed a FFL to do it. At the time (10+ years ago) getting it was no problem.
13 posted on 10/16/2003 11:41:57 AM PDT by toothless
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To: El Gato
the St. Louis collectors – five of them 60 to 79 years old – have had 572 firearms seized.

Whew! I feel better knowing the Feds are on to these desperados.

14 posted on 10/16/2003 11:42:17 AM PDT by MileHi (+)
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To: Publius6961
"I would be the best juror you ever saw, were I called into that jury panel."

Just don't mention that you know anything about guns or you will not get onto the panel.
15 posted on 10/16/2003 11:42:57 AM PDT by toothless
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To: Publius6961
Don't all these accused still enjoy the Constitutional right of trial by jury?

From the article:

What so often happens in cases of “unlicensed dealing” is that the accused cannot afford the legal costs to fight the case, and agrees to a single felony offense – losing all gun ownership rights – and forfeiting many thousands of dollars worth of guns. Those cases “make law,” further encouraging BATF.

All you need is money, and plenty of it because you are fighting "city hall' and they don't run out of funds to go after you with.

16 posted on 10/16/2003 11:45:38 AM PDT by MileHi (+)
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To: oyez
The key in the post was "sport fisher" boat. The fly rod guys call what I have boat wenches! 20# to 80# trolling rods, but I do have one 12 weight fly rod (they call that a boat wench also).
17 posted on 10/16/2003 11:48:02 AM PDT by El Laton Caliente
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To: El Gato
Locator.
18 posted on 10/16/2003 11:51:09 AM PDT by Vigilantcitizen (Habent amicae vestrae magnas clunes? (certe habent!) Hortamini igitur ut eas quatiant (ut quatiant!))
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To: El Gato
bump
19 posted on 10/16/2003 12:05:28 PM PDT by RippleFire
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To: Publius6961
BATF(e)s conviction rate exceeds 90%.

They also have no problem with institutional perjury.

Mash here for proof.

L

20 posted on 10/16/2003 12:06:37 PM PDT by Lurker (Some people say you shouldn't kick a man when he's down. I say there's no better time to do it.)
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