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To: CodeMonkey
The lack of anyone being born with a right to rule their neighbor which resulted in a government that had to be based on the consent of the governed and only said consent. No one was born with a right to control me, the only time then that any controls can be legitimately placed on me are to keep me from doing harm to my neighbor or his/her property.

Libertarian answer, and it's wrong. I think you need to read where the founders got their ideas for government and why they chose the form of government they did. YOu would have NO RIGHTS without Reformation Christianity, and an evil ruler doesn't care about your God-given rights - he would just kill you the first time you complained. (John Calvin was perhaps the true founder of America.)

See above.

Well, the Decl. of Indep. says they come form OUR CREATOR. Who is right? You or the founders?

The Will of God as observed through the laws of nature.

Nature doesn't work. Nature is both cruel and non-cruel. Is cruelty okay? You can't make conclusions about morals from nature. When the founders talked about "Laws of Nature" they didn't mean the humanistic nature, they meant the laws that come from Nature's God. They got it from Puffendorf, Montesquieu, Grotius and Rutherford (Lex Rex) and these men were all Christians

If right and wrong come from God, do you think God cares if you don't take right and wrong seriously? Or is He just an indifferent God? Did God just wind up the clock and step back - deism?

159 posted on 10/16/2003 1:22:08 PM PDT by exmarine
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To: exmarine
"Well, the Decl. of Indep. says they come form OUR CREATOR. Who is right? You or the founders?" Speaking of NOT knowing history.... The Declaration of Independence, while an effective, fiery document, has no legal standing in America. Besides, according to this source, many of the FFs didn't have the beliefs you credit them with: Religion & America
170 posted on 10/16/2003 1:31:54 PM PDT by Blzbba
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To: exmarine
an evil ruler doesn't care about your God-given rights - he would just kill you the first time you complained.

Tell me something exmarine, where were the rights of the slaves in the antebellum south? America has had many evil rulers and it still does. Even our own President, Bush, is not that concerned with how his actions may result in a more tyrannical successor to Clinton being able to control the public.

The only way to keep an evil ruler out of power is to so thoroughly limit the governments' power that they cannot control us except in the most basic ways. The only way to deal with an evil ruler and his/her supporters once civilized means have failed is deadly force. The fundamental premise of our "democracy" that you are not responsible for the views you hold is wrong. If you back a despot you are as much a legitimate target of violence as he or she is.

Nature doesn't work. Nature is both cruel and non-cruel.

Nature works perfectly. Nature is neither cruel or caring, it just is what it is.

Did God just wind up the clock and step back - deism?

On the macro-level, yes.

205 posted on 10/16/2003 2:18:00 PM PDT by CodeMonkey
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