HIV/Aids: Catholic Church in Condom Palaver

AllAfrica ^ | Chioma Obinna

[CobaltBlue]

If one disagrees with the Pope one is ipso facto excommunicated? LOL! I don't think so.

[Antoninus]

Here in America, the percentage of the population which is Catholic has held steady for many years at 28% or so. Of whom the vast majority use contraception.

Nice try. How many years, exactly? Could it be since the 1970s when the Church in America started teaching heterodoxy instead of orthodoxy? When the Amchurch "intellectuals" vociferously protested against Humanae Vitae even to the point of taking out an ad in the NY Times? When the Catholic schools and universities gave a wink and a nod to Church doctrine on the subject and then promptly installed "sex education" programs that encouraged promiscuity. Is that the American Church you're talking about?

In Rome, as I understand it, the churches are empty. Go figure. Could it be that they tell Catholics to go away, as many have told me on this thread? Hmmm . . . .

Again, nice try, but you're lying. First off, the "churches in Rome" are never empty. They are filled with pilgrims. Have you ever been there? Second, those churches in Europe that are empty are the ones which have been propagating heterodoxy for decades now. Is it any wonder they're empty? If a restaurant advertised itself as "5-star" and you got there and all they served was chopped fish guts, would you stick around?

And finally, those churches, seminaries, and institutions here in the U.S. that I am familiar with which actually teach the true, unadulterated, unashamed Catholic doctrine--yes, even on birth control--are positively bursting at the seams. Why? Well, if you showed up at our Indult parish here in NJ, you'd see families with 4, 5, 6 young children.

Guess what? The Culture of Life will eventually breed out the Culture of Death ... it's only a matter of time.

[Antoninus]

Well, in that case, there are probably plenty of Protestants who'd make you see red as well. Teddy Roosevelt, for instance, who was no lover of Catholics himself:

On motherhood as the true source of progress, Teddy Roosevelt said:

"A more supreme instance of unselfishness than is afforded by motherhood cannot be imagined."

Before an audience of liberal Christian theologians in 1911, he said:

"If you do not believe in your own stock enough to see the stock kept up, then you are not good Americans, you are not patriots, and ... I for one shall not mourn your extinction; and in such event I shall welcome the advent of a new race that will take your place, because you wil have shown that you are not fit to cumber the ground."

On the centrality of the child-rich family to the very existence of the American nation:

"It is in the life of the family, upon which in the last analysis the whole welfare of the nation rests....The nation is nothing but the aggregate of the families within its borders."

On parenthood:

"No other success in life, not being President, or being wealthy, or going to college, or anything else, comes up to the success of the man and woman who can feel that they have done their duty and that their children and grandchildren rise up to call them blessed."

On out-of-wedlock birth versus practiced sterility:

"After all, such a vice may be compatible with a nation's continuing to live, and while there is life, even a life marred by wrong practices, there is a chance of reform.

In another place, on the same subject:

"...[W]hile there is life, there is hope, whereas nothing can be done with the dead."

On the behavior of 90% of those who practice birth control:

"[It is derived] from viciousness, coldness, shallow-heartedness, self-indulgence, or mere failure to appreciate aright the difference between the all-important and the unimportant."

On the "pitiable" child-rearing record of graduates of women's colleges like Vassar and Smith who bore only 0.86 of a child each during their lifetimes:

"Do these colleges teach 'domestic science'?... There is something radically wrong with the home training and school training that produces such results."

For the record, TR had seven children of his own.

[Antoninus]

If one disagrees with the Pope one is ipso facto excommunicated? LOL! I don't think so.

Let's not put words in my mouth and then laugh at them. If you disagree with the Church on a teaching defined as infallible, then you are, by definition, a heretic. Is that clear enough?

[CobaltBlue]

Let me take a wild guess - by "true, unadulterated, unashamed Catholic doctrine" and Indult church you are opposed to the reforms of Vatican II.

You hate English mass, altar girls and communion in the hand. You love Latin mass.

Did I guess right?

[honeygrl]

Why would people praising motherhood make me see red? I am a mother of two myself and I stay home with them to care for them. But you know, if we had a 3rd, there is a good chance there might not always be money for milk in the fridge. I'm sure the next statement will be: "you seem to be able to afford internet access." Well, it's because it comes free with my hubby's job at the cable company. We have decent computers because his last job was a much higher rate of pay than what he has now. I don't think it's right to condemn anyone who wishes to stop at 1 or 2 children for whatever reasons they deem necessary as long as they aren't using abortion as their form of birth control.

[Antoninus]

Let me take a wild guess - by "true, unadulterated, unashamed Catholic doctrine" and Indult church you are opposed to the reforms of Vatican II.

Bzzzzt. I favor the reforms of Vatican II as contained in the documents issued by the Council. I reject those "reforms" made on the fly in the "Spirit of Vatican II" by rogue priests, nuns, and liturgists.

You hate English mass, altar girls and communion in the hand.

Bzzzzt. I usually attend a vernacular Novus Ordo Mass. I only go to the Indult about once per month.

You love Latin mass

Ding. I love the Latin Mass. I love the English Mass. When reverently celebrated, I love the Mass. Period.

Did I guess right?

One outta three ain't bad, unless you're talking about condom failure rates...

[scripter]

I've heard this debate before.
Can the HIV virus pass through condoms or not?

I've heard it a few times myself and never really know who to believe. From what I've read, some say the HIV virus cannot pass through condoms. The CDC states condoms "are highly effective in preventing transmission of HIV." You can read more from a CDC fact sheet here:

Male Latex Condoms and Sexually Transmitted Diseases

Your question has encouraged me to look into this further so I'll see what else I can find and write a report.

[Antoninus]

I don't think it's right to condemn anyone who wishes to stop at 1 or 2 children for whatever reasons they deem necessary as long as they aren't using abortion as their form of birth control.

No one is condemning anyone. There is a perfectly acceptable form of birth control which is approved of by the Catholic Church. It's called abstinence. But as with everything else we demand instant gratification; we want to have our cake and eat it too. We think we can successfully seperate the intimate from the procreative aspects of sex and suffer no consequences. People who preach such doctrines are preaching error.

Of course, you realize that many forms of "birth control" are actually abortifacient because they prevent the fertilized egg from implanting. Is that not problematic?

[honeygrl]

So married couples should abstain? And a vasectomy doesn't cause abortion, which is what we are planning soon for the hubby.

[CobaltBlue]

As for me, I suffer from rheumatoid arthritis, and take methotrexate, which was developed for cancer chemotherapy. Methotrexate causes severe birth defects. Therefore, I do not wish to become pregnant.

I am not aware of any Scriptural reason why I should not use contraception while taking methotrexate. Jewish scholars state that it is acceptable for Jewish women to use contraception in my circumstances. Orthodox scholars and Protestant scholars say it is not contrary to scripture or the teachings of the Church Fathers.

Catholic scholars say that "artificial" contraception (barrier methods) should not be used, but "natural" contraception (Billings method) is OK. Which is illogical.

My contraception for the last 15 years, BTW, is the fact that my husband, a Protestant, had a vasectomy, against my wishes, after we had two living children (our first born was premature and died).

Am I sinning by having sex with a man who was sterilized against my wishes? My guess is no.

[CobaltBlue]

There is a perfectly acceptable form of birth control which is approved of by the Catholic Church.

It's called natural family planning (NFP), aka Billings Method. Which requires keeping track of the woman's ovulatory periods and avoiding sex before and during ovulation. I would not call it abstinence, per se.

BTW, NFP allows intercourse during menstruation, which is contrary to the Old Testament. Yet, masturbation is prohibited, because it is contrary to the Old Testament. One more example of Christian picking and choosing that is completely illogical.

Oh, you can't be a homosexual but you can wear clothes blended of two different fibers and eat cheeseburgers. Go figure.

[Hacksaw]

Let's not put words in my mouth and then laugh at them. If you disagree with the Church on a teaching defined as infallible, then you are, by definition, a heretic. Is that clear enough?

The modern day word is Cafeteria Catholic. Lots of Cafeteria Catholics on this thread.

[Antoninus]

So married couples should abstain? And a vasectomy doesn't cause abortion, which is what we are planning soon for the hubby.

If you don't want children, you should abstain. If you can't live without sex, I think you have a very narrow and pathetic view of life. If you want your husband to become a eunuch just so you can have "no-consequence" intercourse, be my guest. Personally, I agree with TR on the subject.

[Antoninus]

I am not aware of any Scriptural reason why I should not use contraception while taking methotrexate.

As a Catholic, you know that we do not consider Scripture to be the sole arbiter of doctrine....

Jewish scholars state that it is acceptable for Jewish women to use contraception in my circumstances. Orthodox scholars and Protestant scholars say it is not contrary to scripture or the teachings of the Church Fathers.

Hey, there are three perfectly good religions for you to join. Why must you insist that Catholics conform to your mistaken notions?

Catholic scholars say that "artificial" contraception (barrier methods) should not be used, but "natural" contraception (Billings method) is OK. Which is illogical.

It is not. It is unacceptable to you, therefore you proclaim it to be illogical.

Am I sinning by having sex with a man who was sterilized against my wishes? My guess is no.

Your question is between you and God. Personally, I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure my own salvation (and that of my spouse) doesn't depend on my best "guess" in a matter such as this. And I certainly wouldn't be out on the internet attempting to convince others to adopt my "guess" as a proper mode of life for themselves. Public rationalization is a particularly sad spectacle to witness.

[Antoninus]

It's called natural family planning (NFP), aka Billings Method. I would not call it abstinence, per se.

Fine, but I was talking about abstinence, not NFP.

BTW, NFP allows intercourse during menstruation, which is contrary to the Old Testament.

Once again, as a Catholic, you are aware that doctrine is not based solely on Scripture.

[Antoninus]

The modern day word is Cafeteria Catholic. Lots of Cafeteria Catholics on this thread.

Actually, I think "Cafeteria Catholic" was the term used in the 1980s. I'm more prone to use "CINO", "Amchurch Catholic", or "Jesuit" these days.

With apologies to Fr. Jogues....



While we here complain bitterly about Church teaching and our earthly desires and ailments, this great Saint and Martyr endured the most hideous tortures imaginable--even having his fingers bitten off--all for the salvation of souls.

St. Isaac Jogues, pray for us!

[Hacksaw]

Actually, I think "Cafeteria Catholic" was the term used in the 1980s. I'm more prone to use "CINO", "Amchurch Catholic", or "Jesuit" these days.

LOL! I went to a Jesuit college, and know what you mean. However, what is the context behind "Amchurch Catholic"?

[CobaltBlue]

I don't insist that anybody conform to my beliefs. I do believe that Christ instituted the Church here on earth for all mankind, and that He does not want anybody to become Jew or Protestant.

After reading thousands of posts on Free Republic on gold chalice vs. wooden chalice, English mass vs. Latin mass, altar girls vs. no altar girls, communion in the hand vs. communion in the mouth, facing the congregation vs. facing away from the congregation, creationism vs. evolution, on and on and on, my belief is that all Catholics disagree about fundamentals.

If I am wrong, then God will deal with me as He chooses. I put my faith in God.

[CobaltBlue]

Once again, as a Catholic, you are aware that doctrine is not based solely on Scripture.

No, there is also Divine Revelation. Which would never be misused or misconstrued in order to achieve temporal aims, right?