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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
I was specifically asking if you thought the 10th Amendment was there because of Vattel's advice.

I believe they followed Vattel a great deal, and have provided evidence that they did.

As far as having certain knowledge if the entire concept of the 10th Amendment revolved ONLY around Vattel without also relying on their own common sense, I can't say, as I am a researcher, not a psychic.

I would like to bring up however, Vattels words:

that several sovereign, and independent states may unite themselves together by a perpetual confederacy, without each in particular ceasing to be a perfect state.

Does that NOT sound an awful lot like 'freedom of association' to you?

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It seems a stretch to use that situation to say that American citizens should only be able to inherit their presidential ability through citizen parents--especially when that was regarded as a situation to be remedied.

Evidence has been provided that that was exactly what happened. You have totally lost me on the 'situation to be remedied' part.

Have you any evidence from that time period to counter it?

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You're not really contending that Wilson is referring to Vattel's book in that quote, rather than to the generic term, are you?

A quote from James Kent earlier said Vattel was the most quoted jurist in the last half century, so do you have any evidence it is not?

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I understand that you think their children would not be eligible for the presidency, but are you really happy with the idea that they wouldn't be American citizens at all?

My happiness will not always revolve around my children's choices, so my philosophy has always been to be happy for THEM...not for what they do or don't do.

Which is very sweet of you to ask, but my personal feelings would in no way, shape, or form, give me any desire to change what has to be the most brilliant document in recent history.

480 posted on 03/21/2013 3:29:13 PM PDT by MamaTexan (To follow Original Constitutional Intent, one MUST acknowledge the Right of Secession)
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To: MamaTexan
I believe they followed Vattel a great deal, and have provided evidence that they did.

I have to say, I think you're dodging a bit. You quoted Tucker quoting Vattel, commenting on the 10th Amendment, to support the idea that the law of nations does govern what happened within a nation. But when I ask whether you think the 10th was the result of following Vattel's advice, you just say "I believe they followed Vattel a great deal." That's awful vague.

This is an ongoing problem, in my opinion, with the strict eligibility-ists' use of Vattel. When they think they can draw a direct line between his words and those of the Constitution or the Founders, they're adamant about the connection; but when other words of Vattel are in direct opposition or contrast to the principles of our nation, suddenly it's time for hedging. If you want to say they picked and chose what they wanted, that's fine, but then, unless there's an explicit statement of the connection, you can't claim any particular thing reflects Vattel.

Evidence has been provided that that was exactly what happened.

I'm sorry--evidence has been provided that American citizens should only be able to inherit their presidential ability through citizen parents? What evidence is that?

You have totally lost me on the 'situation to be remedied' part.

The English law establishing that natural-born subjects could inherit through their alien parents reads

Whereas divers Persons borne within the Kings Dominions are disabled to inherite and make their Titles by Descent from their Ancestors by Reason that their Fathers or Mothers or some other Ancestor (by whom they are to derive their Descent) was an Alien and not borne within the Kings Dominions For Remedy whereof Be it enacted....That all and every Person or Persons being the Kings naturall borne Subject or Subjects within any of the Kings Realmes or Dominions shall and may hereafter lawfully inherite and be inheritable as Heire or Heires...from any of their Ancestors lineall or collaterall although the Father and Mother or Father or Mother or other Ancestor of such Person or Persons by from through or under whom he she or they shall or may make or derive their Title or Pedegree were or was or is or are or shall be borne out of the Kings Allegiance and out of His Majesties Realms and Dominions as freely fully and effectually to all Intents and Purposes as if such Father or Mother or Fathers or Mothers or other Ancestor or Ancestors by from through or under whom he she or they shall or may make or derive their Title or Pedegree had beene naturalized or naturall borne Subject or Subjects within the Kings Dominions Any Law or Custome to the contrary notwithstanding.
In short, in 1698 England fixed the situation whereby natural-born subjects with alien parents might be barred from inheriting through them. So by the time the Founders were writing the Constitution, the only distinction we know of between "born" NBSes and "proclaimed" NBSes had been inoperable for 90 years, and the use of the word "remedy" might suggest they thought the prior situation had been a mistake.

A quote from James Kent earlier said Vattel was the most quoted jurist in the last half century, so do you have any evidence it is not?

So wait--you can pick out any mention of the "law of nations" that you want, and I have to prove it's not a reference to Vattel's book? That's kind of ridiculous. But okay, let's look at other references from Wilson's lecture:

The law of nature, when applied to states or political societies, receives a new name, that of the law of nations.
The law of nations, as well as the law of nature, is of obligation indispensable: the law of nations, as well as the law of nature, is of origin divine.
it was the study of the works of Lord Bacon, that first inspired Grotius with the design of writing a system concerning the law of nations.
and on and on. Are you seriously going to tell me those are all references to Vattel's book? Or is this another case when they're references to Vattel when it suits your purpose and somehow not when it doesn't?
492 posted on 03/21/2013 5:31:27 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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