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Pitching In A Pinch? Dial 1-800-GAYLORD
My own fat head ^
| 1 April 2002
| BluesDuke
Posted on 04/01/2002 3:44:02 PM PST by BluesDuke
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To: BluesDuke
We'll have to cross our fingers and wait it out until his next start. It is entirely possibly that he is "rusty" and could have used a bit more spring training. I genuinely hate to see good pitchers go down.
To: BluesDuke
I've gotta give you credit. You managed to defend the undefendable. I'm old enough to remember the emery board falling out of a Perry brothers' (I think) back pocket and I still remember how I thought he should be hanging from someone's foul pole. But then again, I've always been a Law & Order type, so maybe I'm not representative of the fans as a whole. George Brett's pine tar incident seemed to make a deeper impression, even though I was much younger at the time. Maybe it was the way he expressed his innocence...
I don't know Blues, something has been rotten in the state of baseball for a while now. I'm sure many would say that it has been so from before my tender years of viewing strted. The yards and the inside of the plate are just symptoms of a much bigger problem, one that I don't know where to begin to solve. Money, expansion and the longball are interrelated in an unsavory way.
But I'd posit that it all began not long after the sainted Dodgers left Brooklyn! Maybe instead of the famous Red Sox "curse of the bambino", we should start looking at other factors leading towards the decline of baseball. Brooklyn's continuing sense of loss, while other unworthy cities like Tampa Bay and Montreal were rewarded, may be a starting point for what went wrong.
No, I'm not kidding! MLB threw mud in the faces of a strong area of support while continuing to find reasons too expand in areas that are not willing or able to bear the burden. Its when things first started to go south for baseball.
22
posted on
04/01/2002 6:57:31 PM PST
by
newwahoo
To: newwahoo
I've gotta give you credit. You managed to defend the undefendable. I'm old enough to remember the emery board falling out of a Perry brothers' (I think) back pocket and I still remember how I thought he should be hanging from someone's foul pole. But then again, I've always been a Law & Order type, so maybe I'm not representative of the fans as a whole. George Brett's pine tar incident seemed to make a deeper impression, even though I was much younger at the time. Maybe it was the way he expressed his innocence...
Think of what George Bamberger once called the Staten Island sinkerball as baseball's version of the War On Drugs. Time was when what are now illegal drugs were perfectly legal. Time also was when the wetball was perfectly legal. Time also was that, just like those narsty drugs*, a panicky paranoia prodded baseball to outlaw the spitter for all time, once the incumbent practitioners of the dark art had finished their careers. (To my knowledge, the last known pitcher for whom this "grandfathering" applied was the legendary Burleigh Grimes.)
In the case of the spitter, the catalyst was the Ray Chapman incident - Chapman having been, of course, the Cleveland Indians shortstop who was killed by a high hard one thrown by Yankee pitcher Carl Mays. Because Mays a) had a less-than-nice-guy rep, and b) was known to load one every so often, there seems to have been a presumption that c) the pitch that killed Ray Chapman was a spitter. This gained added credence, from what I can gather, from the fact that the ball Mays threw was not a fresh, clean ball. From there, because of the horror of Chapman's death, it became only too simple, from what I could tell from the readings I've done, to stretch a game-worn ball into a loaded ball, especially since Mays was known as a not-so-nice guy anyway and was known to throw the wet one once in awhile.
And yet the question baseball was never able to reconcile, particularly in light of its grandfathering clause to the spitball codicil (pitchers who were already throwing the pitch were allowed to continue but the ban began immediately on pitchers fresh in the leagues; the last known "legal" spitballer was probably Burleigh Grimes), was how it was that the pitch never injured anyone else even half as severely if and when a batter was hit by it. Still, the spitball ban goes on. A number of pitchers since - Preacher Roe in particular - have admitted to one or another idea of trying to get it legalised again. When Preacher Roe retired, he wrote an article for Life magazine called, "The Outlaw Pitch Was My Money Pitch." He told The Boys of Summer author Roger Kahn that the real idea behind the piece was to get the pitch legalised, since Roe had thrown it without incident for his entire career. (Preacher Roe, by the way, was one of the more underrated members of the Boys of Summer - he comes up short enough of a Hall of Famer, but he was a magnificent competitor who twice led the National League in winning percentage, including a 22-3 season in 1951.) Roe, incidentally, never did it with any tricks. The umps and opposing managers were already so accustomed to looking for the tricks and guile that they never thought to look for a pitcher doing it the old fashioned way: spitting right into his glove. According to Carl Furillo, the Dodgers could tell when the wet one was coming by how Roe tapped his cap before setting for the pitch. "If he went with two fingers," Furillo said, "that was the signal - we knew it was coming. If he went with one finger, we knew he was faking." Roe also told a cute story about getting with Roy Campanella on the pitch, and asking Campy as a rookie if he thought he could handle the wet one. "Nah, no problem," Campanella told Roe. "I caught 'em for years in the coloured leagues."
I don't know Blues, something has been rotten in the state of baseball for a while now. I'm sure many would say that it has been so from before my tender years of viewing strted. The yards and the inside of the plate are just symptoms of a much bigger problem, one that I don't know where to begin to solve. Money, expansion and the longball are interrelated in an unsavory way.
I thought expansion was a dumb idea in the 1990s, particularly since baseball had chosen the new markets without bothering to check as to whether there were viable baseball markets there. But one of the real problems is, baseball somewhere became insane enough to think it had to do it the way football, basketball, and hockey does to promote itself in terms of broadcasting and all. Baseball somewhere lost its singular sense of its own vision, its own uniqueness, when it came to promoting itself, something I dare say might not have happened had A. Bartlett Giamatti lived. And one of its real dumb moves was the insane playoff system and three-division alignment. It has cut the legs out from the pennant races, as I enunciated above, and ruined the singularity of the World Series with the gimmicks like the "division series" and regular-season interleague play. Baseball wasn't broken until the Lords of Baseball tried to fix it.
But I'd posit that it all began not long after the sainted Dodgers left Brooklyn!
The situation involving the Dodgers is actually irrelevant. The real cause of the Dodgers and Giants leaving New York had to do with New York's usually gamesmanship-addicted politicians being unable to stand on their hindlegs against a notoriously smarmy master builder whose grand design for rebuilding New York didn't include baseball teams playing in anything other than city-owned facilities. Robert Moses did everything in his power to obstruct Walter O'Malley's move to buy a portion of parcels on which he could build the Dodgers a new and very badly needed ballpark (Ebbets Field, for better or worse, became obsolete before her time and could no longer be expanded or refurbished - the most successful franchise in the National League couldn't even sell games out in the heat of a pennant race, that's how bad the park itself was becoming), and also to jam down O'Malley's throat the city-owned site on which Shea Stadium in due course was built. Say what you will about O'Malley, but he wasn't looking for the city or state to build a park and just give it to him. Robert Moses's allergy to private enterprise, and his insistence that no new ballpark would go up under his jurisdiction without the city getting the major piece of the action (the nerve of those Dodgers thinking they should be allowed to build themselves a ballpark and reap the benefits and profits for themselves, those capitalist pigs!), is what pushed the Dodgers out of town. (Interesting mystery: why Moses never thought of offering the Flushing Meadows site to the New York Giants, who didn't have the borough-specific identity the Dodgers had in Brooklyn and couldn't afford then to build a new park which they, too, needed very badly.) You can get the full story in Mr. Neil J. Sullivan's The Dodgers Move West.
Maybe instead of the famous Red Sox "curse of the bambino", we should start looking at other factors leading towards the decline of baseball. Brooklyn's continuing sense of loss, while other unworthy cities like Tampa Bay and Montreal were rewarded, may be a starting point for what went wrong.
Tampa Bay was stupid enough to build the cart before it had the horse, not to mention thinking it had a market for baseball when none, really, existed. (They originally built that abominable stewpot of a stadium hoping to attract an established team, particularly the Chicago White Sox or the San Francisco Giants, both of whom thought they might have to move during the 1980s.) Montreal's mistake was Olympic Stadium. In fact, one of baseball's biggest mistakes was the cookie-cutter parks that began showing up in the 1960s (Veteran's Stadium, Riverfront, Three Rivers, et. al.), all of which were built municipally for multipurposes (Wags in Washington: "The Redskins loved the Senators' new ballpark," then known as D.C. Stadium.) and none of which allowed for any legitimate baseball ambience. That was one of the critical reasons why baseball had such topsy-turvy times of public support in the decades before Camden Yards appeared. Baseball had to learn the hard way that the ballparks and their ambiences matter. As for Brooklyn's sense of loss, it was very real and soul deep - but the blame belongs with the New York politicians who fiddled while Robert Moses burned Walter O'Malley's bridges.
No, I'm not kidding! MLB threw mud in the faces of a strong area of support while continuing to find reasons too expand in areas that are not willing or able to bear the burden.
MLB didn't throw mud in any Brooklyn face - the politicians in New York did that. MLB did, however, throw mud in Washington's face when they approved Bob Short's purchase of the Washington Senators in 1968. Short was fool enough to think he could run a baseball team the way he ran his trucking enterprises. The result: he screwed the Senators' pooch just when the team began to look like a contender, alienated their fan base, then took the team out of town blaming the fans for his own shortsights. And baseball - then under the rule of the hardly competent Bowie Kuhn - let him get away with it.
To: newwahoo
P.S. The emery board was caught on the person of Joe Niekro. Kevin Gross of the Philadelphia Phillies was once caught with sandpaper on his glove. The craziest catch was Rick Honeycutt, then with the Seattle Mariners: he'd taped a thumbtack to his hand with a flesh-coloured bandage and was caught red-handed and ejected. As he left the mound, he was so embarrassed he sweat heavily and, without thinking, moved to wipe the sweat off his forehead - with the thumbtacked hand, putting a side-to-side gash across his forehead!
Joe Hoerner, whom I mentioned in my essay, learned the hard way about letting the evidence slip out of his pocket. His tube of whatever stickum he used to load his ball fell out of his jacket pocket as he got up to warm up in the 1970 All Star Game. Unfortunately, the bullpen coach was Joe Pignatano, a coach with the Mets. Pignatano, naturally, brought the news back to his club after the All-Star break. Joe Hoerner didn't dare try loading one whenever he faced the Mets for the rest of that season. The Mets watched him like police staking out an organised crime sit-down.
Most unlikely method of loading up a spitter: Phil (The Vulture) Regan. The fabled Los Angeles Dodger/Chicago Cub relief ace sweat so profusely by nature, he would simply let his own sweat get on the ball, and he'd throw it that way. (It was Sandy Koufax who hung Regan with the nickname The Vulture.)
To: BluesDuke
A) Raise the Mound back to the old level
B) Thank you for the info in your post...I just recently saw a documentary (on PBS) about Robert Moses, and it either didn't go into the baseball situation, or I stopped watching it.
However, after your account of the true reason why the Dodgers and the Giants left, it makes total sense now. Why would any team want to leave the best baseball town anywhere at anytime? Of course, a public servant is the culprit. Makes total sense...
C) The Mets won today. Although I didn't get to see the game, I am happy anyway....
25
posted on
04/01/2002 8:59:05 PM PST
by
motzman
To: motzman
I don't think the mound height now is quite as damaging as the inconsistent and rather tiny strike zone. If they re-opened the strike zone to the proper shoulders-and-knees dimensions, the mounds could stay at the heights they are now and you'd still balance the pitchers and the hitters, especially given the pitchers who like to live either on the corners or up and away in the zone; and, for those who like to go down, they're losing strikes when they hit the outer corners. Just rebalance the strike zone. The hitters will still get their hits. I mean, look at the Mets today: They've got themselves a lot of heavy lumber in the lineup and they spanked the Pirates with a nice game of little ball. Didn't stop Jay Payton from getting a nice pitch and going to the back of the bullpen. And you know Mike and Mo and Jeromy and Edgardo aren't going to wait too long before they start going yard...you could give those guys a strike zone from their ankles to their earlobes and they'd still take you downtown in a few New York minutes.
Mr. Sullivan's book on the Dodger controversy is still in print, in quality paperback. It is vital reading for anyone who cares to know the whole depth of that sorry episode.
To: BluesDuke
I love the homerun hitters! Ken Griffey Jr., Jay Buehner, Edgar Martinez (especially Edgar!) Alex Rodriguez even the catcher Dan Wilson would get in on the Mariner's homerun act. Oh well, it's not the same team now..... but it was fun while it lasted even though it didn't do the pennant thang. Nothing like getting out the rye bread for a Mariner Grand Salami.
To: ValerieUSA
Believe me, I don't dislike the home run bombers. But I do prefer balanced baseball. Something is badly amiss when batting practise machines have better ERAs than human major league pitchers do. It's just as bad if the balance is overweighted toward pitching as when it is toward hitting.
To: ValerieUSA
And besides, for all those home run hitters the Mariners had in that time, what they didn't have was an Ichiro Suzuki. Put it this way: Those other gentlemen were home run hitters but not much in the way of being ballplayers. Ichiro Suzuki may not be the second coming of Sadaharu Oh, but he is what even Junior is not, for all his power: a ballplayer. I dare say he will prove to be but one thing for the Mariners: The Franchise.
To: BluesDuke
That's not quite fair - Junior was a fielder, too. He could make spectacular catches, never giving up on a fly as he threw himself to the wall and grabbed it from the brink. They were weak on pitching, even when Randy Johnson was there - he had no decent back-up. I haven't followed them in recent years though, nor any team since I moved to Texas. Perhaps I ought to take the boys to Arlington for a Rangers game once this summer (if I win the lottery) and see Alex again. The Texas Sports Hall of Fame is here in Waco, maybe we'll go there, it'll be cheaper. *L*
Speaking of the Mariners - here's what Jay Buehner did on opening day:
Seattle Times
For the first time in more than a quarter century, Jay Buhner departed yesterday from what he has always done this time of year. Instead, he did what he has wanted to do most play with his family.
Age and injuries conspired to force the 37-year-old Buhner into retirement this season after 14 years with the Seattle Mariners. He welcomed that as an opportunity to spend more time with his wife, Leah, and three children, Brielle, 11, Chase, 10, and Gunnar, 8, at his Issaquah estate........
To: BluesDuke
To: ValerieUSA
demolition -- sheeeeesh, Valerie
To: BluesDuke
How's about it, folks? Shall we bring back the spitballers, if not exactly the spitter? (I mean, on the one hand, I think it was ridiculous to outlaw the pitch. On the other hand, like I said - it is fun watching the outlaws trying to outfox the judges!)
Hell yes.
Of course I'm biased. I grew up an Indians fan in the 1970s, when Gaylord Perry was the ace of our staff (he won 21 games and threw 28 complete games in 1974), he wrote a biography where he admitted throwing the spitter and gave some basic instructions on how to throw it.
After reading it I saw him at a personal appearance and asked him about the technique I developed. He gave me a couple pointers and I ended up developing a truly evil spitter. One time when my brother was playing catcher he reached up for a high pitch and the damn thing hit him in the toe.
When Perry would throw it, particularly at the free-swinging As, the results were often hilarious. Of course that changed when the rules were revised so the umps could call an "illegal pitch" based on the flight of the ball (before they had to discover something on the ball). It was totally the "Gaylord Perry Rule". >:(
So yeah, I'd like to see it back. ![](http://members.aol.com/erocc/wahoo.gif)
-Eric
33
posted on
04/02/2002 3:56:17 AM PST
by
E Rocc
To: Enterprise
"Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, or Pedro Martinez, either" Johnson won his game against San Diego 2-0, Maddux was pulled because of a sore butt, but Glavine got the win, Clemens lost against the ORIOLES, and Boston lost but Pedro managed not to get the loss.
Bartolo Colon seems to have learned to throw inside (and with his size a hitter might think twice about charging the mound), which has been the only thing other than full time concentration lacking in his game the last couple years. Perhaps those two years he aged in the off-season helped. >:)
If he can maintain, American League look out.
-Eric
34
posted on
04/02/2002 4:00:45 AM PST
by
E Rocc
To: BluesDuke
I blame the hitting explosion on global warming.
You are probably right that the spitter would even things up a bit, but frankly, I would rather see teams teach a good changeup. Changing speeds screws up a hitter more than movement does.
35
posted on
04/02/2002 4:54:03 AM PST
by
Dales
To: BluesDuke
"And one of its real dumb moves was the insane playoff system and three-division alignment. It has cut the legs out from the pennant races, as I enunciated above, and ruined the singularity of the World Series with the gimmicks like the "division series" and regular-season interleague play"
You are totally correct. The races aren't races anymore. Everyone thinks they can just lay off and go for the wild card. I can do without interleague play as well.
"MLB didn't throw mud in any Brooklyn face - the politicians in New York did that."
If you're talking about the Dodgers' exodus, I tend to agree with you after the evidence you have presented. "O'Malley as villain" is still the basic story passed on around here, and i guess I just accepted it from childhood without really delving into it. But MLB has never tried to make up for what happened, even though it would be in their interest to do so. The perfect example for me is how the NFL handled the situation of the Cleveland Browns. Eventually they got their colors and their team back.
Brooklyn, taken apart from the rest of NYC, is still larger than most cities in the USA and more baseball-crazy. After the success of the Cyclones last year, I have no doubt we could support three teams around here should MLB have the guts to overrule any objections from the Mets and yanks. Yes, the three teams would split the fan base, but this would help bring the yanks closer to the rest of MLB in power and wealth. You might find this amusing- A few weeks ago i walked over with my girlfriend to Bartels-Pritchard square next to Prospect Park to watch the local St. Pats parade. As it was forming up to begin, our new borough president (Marty Markowitz)walks bye glad handling the crowd and waving to people he knew and this is what took place.
Borough president: Hi, nice to see you all...blah blah blah
Anonymous guy: HEY! MARTY! WHAT ABOUT THE DODGERS?!
Borough president: ummmm... (keeps shaking hands)
Anonymous guy #2: YEAH! THE DODGERS MARTY! WHAT ABOUT THE DODGERS!
Borough president: (scurries away)
36
posted on
04/02/2002 6:26:45 AM PST
by
newwahoo
To: BluesDuke
By all means, bring back the "spitter"!! The Barry Bonds-types will still hit plenty of homers what with their short fences, and pumped up bodies. One of my favorite times was watching Gaylord Perry pitch. Ya never knew what he would throw, and the drama (high comedy) was merely the "anticipation" of his next ploy.
The funniest thing I ever saw in baseball was when a Pirates pitcher was getting hammered, and Andy Van Slyke came out to the mound wearing a master carpenters belt, loaded with every illegal pitchers tool imaginable!!
To: BluesDuke
"(You can look it up - The Ol' Ueck hit .400 lifetime against Koufax.)"
Kinda makes you wonder if his whole life wasn't a hoax??lol
To: BluesDuke
"I'm kind of surprised that the Red Sox didn't think of having El Pedro wring it out in a little extra spring training, or a couple of rehab gigs in Triple-A," "Speaking as a long time suffering Red Sox fan,(BACK TO THE CONIGLIARO DAYS) one of their problems is that they often don't THINK.
To: BluesDuke
"the nerve of those Dodgers thinking they should be allowed to build themselves a ballpark and reap the benefits and profits for themselves, those capitalist pigs!), "
Truth to tell, a goodly chunk of the valuation of the Dodgers organization was its real estate holdings in Ca. Fla, and overseas. Smart cookies, those capitalist pigs !!(LOL)
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