Tesla turns up heat on rivals with global price cuts

Reuters ^ | January 13, 2023 | Hyunjoo Jin, Victoria Waldersee and Zoey Zhang

[M_Continuum]

Sweet ride. That’s a lot of cash.

[spokeshave]

My truck looks a bit like that...2WD and a straight 6 cylinder tractor gas engine....previous owner had engine rebuilt...I installed a 4 speed gear box with a floor shifter...standard 3 gears...4th is overdrive.....also installed power brakes.

[spokeshave]

I told the spouse...that’s not rust...its patina....makes the truck more valuable.

[spokeshave]

Next up...convert to power steering....slow speed parking is difficult.

Stick shift is like theft protection...very few drivers today can work a stick shift.

[Svartalfiar]

Yeah, it must be tough to find an outlet in the garage and let the car charge up while the driver is sleeping. Eventually this problem will spawn a sequel to Amistad.

It's definitely tough if your daily commute is longer than you can charge. Regular 120V outlets charge at around 3-5 miles per hour, so 30-40 miles over an 8-hr night, in decent weather temps. That's fine if your daily drive is 10 miles down the road. That doesn't work if you're hitting 85 miles round trip (like I am currently). So you'd have to either install a 240V system, or find charging stations somewhere.

As opposed to just stopping and filling up on the way home the night before. Or borrowing the lawn mower's 5gal gas can if there's a real emergency.

[SunkenCiv]

There are charging stations even here in Michigan, because Tesla’s buildout of those has been going on a while. In Michigan a new Tesla can’t be bought, because no dealer network, they have to be purchased used, or out of state. And yet the superchargers are found at Meijer filling stations, including one less than ten miles from here and right on the freeway. And getting the 240 outlet installed is not a bad idea (my dad put one in the garage here because of the welder). As with gasoline fillups, a modest amount of planning is necessary. Building a negative case that’s so specific is obviously just nonsense.

[EVO X]

If you can find the parts, sure you can rebuild or fix older cars. I have heard reports of cars getting totaled by insurance companies because parts are not available. This is likely to apply to cars with low production runs.

[Svartalfiar]

True, but even their charging stations aren’t quick. isn’t it 30-40 min there? Sure, the superchargers are maybe 10 min, but those are a lot more widespread, and I thought the high-voltage speed charging wasn’t good for the batteries.
Whereas I can get gas at most road intersections, and it takes maybe 5min to get 300+ miles of charge.

And yes, 240V would likely be sufficient for most people, but that’s an additional cost to install, as most people aren’t going to already have 240V service. To be fair, half of Tesla owners obviously don’t care much about spending some $$$, but the other half probably overbought getting a Tesla just for the ‘prestige’ of it.

But this isn’t a specific case I came up with - YOU said people in general could just fill up overnight plugging into their garages. I said some, sure, but many likely wouldn’t be able to just do that. It’s hard to find actual estimates, but it seems the average commute in these US is about 19.8 miles, one-way. So regular wall outlets overnight might work for a bunch, but you’re really cutting it close on running errands or going out to eat. And having to plan a 30min, hours trip to the charger every so often kinda undermines the whole point of just charging at home.

[SunkenCiv]

A charge sufficient to make most commuters’ day takes just a few minutes. Period. And the “additional cost” compared with the initial vehicle is just another trope, as is the rest of your imaginary case. We’re done here.

[Svartalfiar]

A charge sufficient to make most commuters’ day takes just a few minutes. Period.

How far do you think most people travel? A few minutes might get close to enough charge, if you're lucky enough to have a supercharger station right next door. Otherwise the only people who can do that are those that work from home or at the grocery store on the corner. Everyone else will definitely need more than a few minutes. Period.


And the “additional cost” compared with the initial vehicle is just another trope, as is the rest of your imaginary case. We’re done here.

Additional cost? I highly doubt most electricians will wire stuff into your breaker for free, and the huge majority of people would have no idea what to do. The majority that could figure it out are probably smart enough to know they should hire an electrician to do it. But getting one installed is probably gonna run you around $500-$1000, which is not a minimal cost for many people.

This isn't imaginary cases - you said normal people can just plug in to their garage overnight and that's it. But in many cases, that won't be sufficient for many drivers.

[SunkenCiv]

Stop trolling. Most driving remains within 25 miles of home. Period.

“Additional cost? I highly doubt most electricians will wire stuff into your breaker for free.”

Right, that’s the additional cost. Stop trolling.

Yours is a single alleged case, period. MOST people would be well served by an electric vehicle, period — apart from the initial cost. Period.

[Svartalfiar]

Stop trolling. Most driving remains within 25 miles of home. Period.

So I said the average commute is about 20 miles. You add five miles to that, yet I'm the one trolling? Huh?


Right, that’s the additional cost. Stop trolling.

So if you admit there's additional cost, why do you call it a "trope" and "imaginary"?


Yours is a single alleged case, period. MOST people would be well served by an electric vehicle, period — apart from the initial cost. Period.

Let's see. I have a ~85 mile round trip through the week, and about 45 miles Sunday. One of my brothers is about 70 miles round trip to work. A coworker is just over 50 miles. Couple other people I know have 50-80 mile round trips. All of those are beyond a 40ish mile nightly charge. An EV would be questionable at best for many of us, and we're not even accounting for extremely cold or hot weather yet. Sure, we could dwindle down over the week, but now I have to plan to not go anywhere on a Saturday to make sure I get it back to full for the week, or have a 15 mile drive to the nearest Supercharger, and sit there for an hour(?) or so. And that's a 20-mile walk from my bar, so not worth it.

Although you can 'win' the wife. She's only a 1.7 mile drive to work, so an EV would make sense for her... if the vehicle cost was the same as her fancy Pilot. Four miles a day is gonna take a looooooooooooooooooooong time to recoup the $70,000+ extra she'd pay for the Tesla SUV.

[SunkenCiv]

You’re trolling because a 20 or 25 mile trip isn’t going to mean hours of recharging time.

You’re trolling because you tried to claim I was ignoring the cost of the outlet.

Both your claims are tropes.

Repeating your own case doesn’t build a case against EVs.

[SunkenCiv]

Kevin’s channel has a lot of ICE, EV, other vehicle content. He took his Tesla across North America to visit his mother (I think it was), broke a wheel in one of the Dakotas (the state, not the old Dodge small pickups), and had to wait for the replacement. His suggestion is, rent an ICE car if planning to drive long distances. I’ve enjoyed his channel quite a bit, although I usually go get a snack and beverage during his chalk talks.

Engineering Explained
3.39M subscribers
https://www.youtube.com/@EngineeringExplained/videos

[Svartalfiar]

You’re trolling because a 20 or 25 mile trip isn’t going to mean hours of recharging time.

How is it not? Tesla's website, Tesla forums, several EV websites, all put the charging rate at 2-6 miles per hour of charging. Do you disagree with them? Do you have any proof that states that it charges much much faster than everyone else, including the manufacturer, claims?

At that rate, a 20 mile trip (40 miles to get there and back) is between seven and twenty hours charging. That definitely does not fall within "a few minutes".

Even if you get a level 2 240V charger installed in the garage, those claims have been about 13-20 miles per hour. So 40 miles is around two or three hours of charging. Still not quite "a few minutes".

The new V3 superchargers look to hit a rate of 15 miles per minute (although a fuller battery means slower recharge times). So yea, if you have one on your way home, or paid Tesla tons of money to install one at home (and the utility to run the capacity to your house), you can recharge the day "in a few minutes", unless you usually keep the battery close to full (a good idea), in which case it's gonna be a couple times "a few minutes" when you refill nightly.


You’re trolling because you tried to claim I was ignoring the cost of the outlet.

"And the “additional cost” compared with the initial vehicle is just another trope, as is the rest of your imaginary case."

There's what you said. Calling the extra expense "a trope" and part of "your imaginary case" is, in common English parlance, attempting to ignore the subject.


Repeating your own case doesn’t build a case against EVs.

And calling the facts I pulled off Tesla's website/Tesla forums and applying a bit of basic math to them, as "a trope" and "imaginary", doesn't build a case for EVs whatsoever.

[SunkenCiv]

“all put the charging rate at 2-6 miles per hour of charging”

...on a common wall outlet. Being able to plug in anywhere is an option of course, but that won’t be the usual course of action of most people who buy a Tesla.

Robots who are up 24/7 may have a problem with the hours involved in overnight charging, but no one else should.

And even in Michigan, where ICE cars at least used to be built in large quantities, have Tesla Superchargers in (for example) Meijer filling stations, and those will put up to 200 miles into the car in 15 minutes.

And yeah, you are using tropes, and yeah, you are a troll.

[Svartalfiar]

...on a common wall outlet. Being able to plug in anywhere is an option of course, but that won’t be the usual course of action of most people who buy a Tesla.

I'm pretty sure our whole conversation started with people plugging into their regular garage outlets overnight.


Robots who are up 24/7 may have a problem with the hours involved in overnight charging, but no one else should.

Again, it depends on how long overnight is, and how long someone's commute/other driving is. The average driver will have to fill up at a non-home charging station every so often, or pay to install bigger chargers at home.


And even in Michigan, where ICE cars at least used to be built in large quantities, have Tesla Superchargers in (for example) Meijer filling stations, and those will put up to 200 miles into the car in 15 minutes.

Lucky you. There's about 1500 Supercharger stations in these US, and about 20% of those are in CA. There's gonna be very few Teslas driving around that have a supercharger on the local grocery corner. Even in a big city, there might only be 3-4 locations 10s of miles apart and serving millions of people. If anything in this conversation is a trope, it's the ease of supercharging a Tesla.

[SmokingJoe]

Actually, Tesla stock is UP 64% since the start of the year.

NASDAQ: TSLA
177.90 USD
+69.80 (+64.57%)
Friday, 9:00 PM GMT • Disclaimer

Tesla has very good profit margins. They can afford price cuts.
GM/Ford cannot.

[SmokingJoe]

How is it not? Tesla's website, Tesla forums, several EV websites, all put the charging rate at 2-6 miles per hour of charging

Which Tesla web site says that?
Please give us a link to any Tesla web site that actually says that will you?

[Svartalfiar]

How is it not? Tesla's website, Tesla forums, several EV websites, all put the charging rate at 2-6 miles per hour of charging

Which Tesla web site says that?
Please give us a link to any Tesla web site that actually says that will you?

https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters - Has a chart showing 2 mi/hr charging a Model X on 5-15, and a max of 4 mi/hr using a 5-20 outlet on other models. So all right, Tesla doesn't claim up to the 6 mi/hr I said; that was likely from some forum post on real-world use, but you're right, it's probably not accurate and 4 mi/hr is likely the best you can do on regular 120V home outlets. .

https://www.tesla.com/support/home-charging-installation/faq#charge-time

Can I use a normal 120 volt outlet to charge?
You can use a NEMA 5-15 adapter for a 120 volt outlet. This provides approximately two to four miles of range per hour of charge depending on the car. For the best home charging experience, we recommend installing a Wall Connector.


You know, for someone so gung-ho on EVs and Teslas as you are, I'm really surprised I have to do this research for you.