Posted on 11/28/2022 5:40:58 AM PST by MtnClimber
Good post, I enjoyed it! Well said, even if we disagree on some things.
Yes, it is politics and not the military that is true, so any expectation of “blind faith and loyalty” is indeed far fetched.
I abhor blind faith, but that is not what I am referring to. And loyalty? Well, Trump can be faulted for assuming that the mechanics of business and politics were close enough to expect loyalty from those he appointed. From them he deserved only two things: loyalty, or self termination by the subject. The party as a whole is different, but conservative America elected them and deserved better from them.
But, as I said in another post, there is a hierarchy that should be observed.
Thank you, TB.
And thank you for the ping. I sure do love me some VDH!
When you can borrow at x% and use the money to make more than x%, you do. It makes sense when running a profitable business.
GOVERNMENT IS NOT A PROFITABLE BUSINESS.
It generally shouldn't be. Government debt is a heavy and usually inexcusable burden on the taxpayers.
Thank you-my analogy isn’t perfect, but I feel there is a fitting lesson that can be applied by the analogy. I know others may feel differently about it.
I read the book. It’s a work of fiction. Within that semi-fictional world:
Queeg was personally an asshole and professionally a poltroon. The officers under him weren’t much better, for a variety of reasons. The real fault lay above Queeg himself:
1) I know they were desperate, WWII getting geared up and all, but Queeg was unfit for wartime command. He should have been shuffled off to some low stress shore command back CONUS. That was a not uncommon problem in the real US Navy in 1942. It took a while to get resolved. The fault here lies with Queegs superiors as much as with himself.
2) The officers under him did not have a military mindset. The CO may be a complete jackass; that doesn’t in any way diminish his legitimate authority, which they did not respect. This did not help matters.
3) I’m also thinking of CAPT Herbert Sobel (back in the real world) ... His LTs respected his authority, even while considering him unfit personally. Even the “mutinous” SGTs respected his authority; they expressed their displeasure by seeking transfer ... and some of them paid for it. It did get the message across, though.
Comparing the real Donald Trump to the fictitious Captain Queeg is absurd.
Yes. I have read the book. Queeg was a jerk. But any hierarchy (specifically the military because of its nature) has jerks in it.
In the military, you don’t have the option of quitting and finding another job. So you have to work under that jerk. And the nature of the military mandates you do just that. It is a dicey matter to bring this to the attention of superior officers, who are generally reticent when it comes to relieving an officer of responsibility.
But that is how it is, as generations of military veterans can attest to, ranging from junior enlisted men to flag officers. If you work under a jerk, even one who might get people killed, has few escape routes.
In civilian world it is different. But there is a hierarchy in politics as well, though as we all know, each individual wants to get into office and partake of the hierarchy and its rules as little as they can. Most of them get in and stay in for the power and the perks.
But there is a hierarchy. If the hierarchy is composed of appointed and selected people it is expected you toe the line of who appointed you, provide your feedback, and if the leader of your hierarchy gives you instructions, you should either quit or salute and say “Yes sir.” and do what is asked.
You may feel differently about this, but that is how I feel an honorable person with principles should act. If you can’t do that, you should never accept the job.
And that is why this analogy is attractive to me.
Great lines from a great book. THE coming of age story of the twentieth century.
I agree with all of this. The one exception is when you have a fiduciary responsibility (Such as an officer in the company, or a Cabinet secretary) and the order is illegal or causes a conflict. At that point you have to either resign or refuse to carry out the order.
The issue with Trump he was asking his staff to do stuff that was not legal or that required Congressional support. That’s what caused most of his “disloyalty” claims.
I am not debating whether he was right or wrong. I am suggesting when you look at the number of reliable people who are/were well respected when they joined the team; who all left before their term was up…that has got to be a big flashing red light.
In the end, when your two strongest allies are Rudy Gulliani and Mike Lindell…that is just sad.
is it a coincidence that Queeg begins with Q?
ruh roh raggy.
Can you reference specific "illegal" "stuff" that is not originating from any main news channel, Democrat party, or people that have an axe to grind and it is their word against his?
I ask that because we have entered a stage where there is not a single trustworthy media entity in this country...not one, including Fox...and the people who assert damning things due to having an axe to grind or are compromised by blackmail or greed don't hold water with me either.
It’s funny, I enjoyed the book (which I have read multiple times) but being a visual person, the movie simply held a greater sway with me!
But yes-it is a typical coming of age story of the Twentieth Century, for many Americans, at least. That is a great way to put it.
I have often said that the GI Bill was one of the greatest things this country ever did. There were legions of men who came home, and were itching to do something, anything with their lives, many of whom had no guarantee that their lives would even last to the end of that war.
That our government instituted this, opening a pathway for many of these Veterans to get an education and advance themselves-well, I don’t care which party prescribed it. I think it was a wonderful thing.
I was lucky enough to squeak in right under the wire to get the “old” GI Bill, and I put it to good use. I chose a state college, whose tuition was more in line with what the GI Bill gave me, and I held down a job all through college, first washing dishes at a Nursing Home then I got an awesome job as a lab assistant at a medical school, and life was good for me.
I lived rent-free at home with my parents while in college, commuted to a State College, and graduated with no debt. I always had enough money to do fun things, go on skiing and camping trips, dates with lovely gals, and so on. Granted, I was short enough on money that getting a flat tire was a monetary crisis, but..I thank the GI Bill for the freedom it gave me.
And I look at my dad. My dad was Willie Keith. Went to Holy Cross under the V-12 program, graduated with a commission at 19, and his first duty station was aboard the USS Whitemarsh (LSD-8) which he met up with in Japan, where it had arrived to serve as a logistical ship for occupation just after the surrender. My dad was one of those “90 Day Wonders” like Ensign Willie Keith. Kind of reminded me of him, too.
He came back in 1947, and went to college at Holy Cross, got his degree, worked as a waiter at a local country club at night, and his father’s grocery store on weekends. He became at age 23 the American Legion Post Commander, then in 1951, was recalled from the Naval Reserve, was assigned to a destroyer, and served in Korea. He applied to and received entry to the regular Navy, and served for thirty years.
There are a lot of men whose “coming of age” story matches that of my dad. God bless them all. How I miss him.
When people like Mattis wash their hands of you…that’s a pretty good indicator. When a well respected Bill Barr washes his hands of you (and then has Trump beg him to come back), that’s telling.
You didn’t answer my question. That’s okay, you don’t really need to.
Barr has revealed himself for what he is. He is there to protect the established order, which Trump was not part of, an that is what is telling.
Mattis, well, he was a real disappointment of the highest order to me. I have talked to a few USMC vets who take extreme umbrage at Mattis, and I trust their judgement.
You dismiss these guys based on the crap you get from QAnon style comments and Trumps ranting.
Did you read Barr’s book? He warned Trump to get good lawyers and be prepared to challenge results. Trump did not quite comprehend there were 50 different races and there is virtually no precedent for Federal challenges. He told Trump he was focusing his efforts on the wrong places.
Trump ignored him. He stuck with Rudy and Lindell as his advisors. He thought he could “personality” through the process.
Then when Barr told him there was little the DOJ could legally do (because they did not have standing) Trump flipped out. Barr quit. And by the time Barr got back to his office to clean out his desk, Trump was begging him to come back.
Trump lost it. And he blamed everyone else. His lack of understanding about the entire electoral process and his inability to understand how The process goes in the House and Senate worked made him turn on Pence.
But, since Trump yells and screams about “Fake” this and that, and disloyal backstabbers—those who are convinced everyone but the QAnon decoder ring crowd is against them in some grand conspiracy. In the end, Trump had alienated EVERYONE who might have had an inkling of helping.
To sit back and read the comments from the FR Trumpists is eye opening. They display the same mental mindset—if you challenge The Donald, you are a disloyal backstabbing communist.
It’s such a cultist mindset now, it borders on creepy.
It’s no wonder I see many of the same names supporting Russia and their invasion of their neighbor.
But, the immediate responses are: you are a Biden lover; You are a Cheney lover; Who else is there?
It’s all crazy talk.
I can understand why people say derogatory things about you on this forum. I have observed it, but have given you the benefit of the doubt because I don’t know you.
We were having a discussion here. It’s obvious we disagree on many things, then you come out and insult me saying “crap you get from QAnon style comments”.
Okay. I come to FR because I am looking for reasoned discussion. And I got this from you.
Forget it. I am not wasting my time with this. You can get the last word in.
Boy, did you ever nail it there.
Vermont Lt making friends and influencing people.
Reasoned discussion? That makes me laugh.
There hasn’t been “reasoned” discussion here for years.
Trumpist think insults and condescending comments are the way to go. I guess you guys get that from your boss.
I generally try not to get crosswise with people if I can afford it, because I know there are people, you just get them on a bad day and they misfire. Happens to all of us.
But this is ongoing. I’m done with it. I have a limited amount of time, and I don’t want to waste it.
Did someone step in shit? I smell something.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.