Posted on 07/05/2020 6:48:28 PM PDT by AggregateThreat
My belief is that happens during the Great Tribulation. Yes, I believe that will bring in the greatest harvest of souls.
YMMV, of course. :)
Nonetheless, it is good to see you Brother.
amen and good to see you too!
I can’t tell from post if you believe in a pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib Rapture.
“I can’t tell from post if you believe in a pre-Trib, mid-Trib, or post-Trib Rapture.”
Pre-wrath.
My view is that the Great Tribulation begins at the abomination of desolation (exact middle of Daniel’s seventieth week) but does not continue to the end of this seven-year period. Rather, at some point during the second half, the Great Tribulation will end, marked by signs in the heavens, including the sun and moon being darkened (apparently a combined solar and lunar eclipse). Right after these signs, the rapture will occur, marking the arrival of the Day of the Lord, aka Day of Wrath or otherwise known as “The End”.
It is helpful to study the distinction between the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord in scripture. The signs in the sun, moon, and stars happen at the end of the Great Tribulation and before the Day of the Lord.
Very succinctly, the last seven years are also called the Time of Jacob's Trouble. The seven year peace treaty the Anti-christ signs at the beginning is broken after the first three and one half years, he makes the Temple desolate, and that begins the last three and one half years of the Tribulation period.
So the seven years can be broken up into two parts; Tribulation then Wrath, 3.5 years each.
And no, the Rapture does not occur after the signs you mentioned. It comes as a "thief in the night," when no one is expecting it. The day and hour no one knows. If it comes after a bunch of signs in the heavens, then people will be expecting it so logically that makes no sense.
“If that’s the case, then your view of the last seven years of the age does not match up to those of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.”
My view is not in agreement with a pre-tribulation rapture. You are correct. I am convinced that the rapture will NOT occur before the Great Tribulation.
“Very succinctly, the last seven years are also called the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. The seven year peace treaty the Anti-christ signs at the beginning is broken after the first three and one half years, he makes the Temple desolate, and that begins the last three and one half years of the Tribulation period.”
We agree in general on these things. But the time of Jacob’s trouble is not the same as the Great Tribulation or Daniel’s seventieth week. The Great Tribulation is generalized and comes upon the whole world. It effects not only Israel but also Gentiles, whether they are followers of Christ or not.
Revelation 3:10 (NKJV)
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
“So the seven years can be broken up into two parts; Tribulation then Wrath, 3.5 years each.”
The seven years are broken into two parts, being divided by the abomination of desolation. The first half contains its own two parts: a time of false peace (and great deception), and the “beginning of sorrows”. The second half also contains two parts: the Great Tribulation, and the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is also known as “The End”.
For reference, I recommend a detailed study of the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and the parallel passage in Revelation 6 which contains the same sequence of events called “signs” at Olivet. Christ also cited the reading of Daniel as He elaborated on the meaning of the abomination of desolation. Daniel, especially chapters 9-12, is the basis of our understanding of these final seven years, and they were a major source of Paul’s teaching to the Thessalonians on end times. His reference to the abomination of desolation in 2 Thessalonians 2 is from Daniel.
All of the references to the Day of the Lord are helpful, but Joel 3 is particularly important because of how the signs in the sun and moon specifically precede the Day of the Lord, while this same occurrence marks the end of the Great Tribulation in the passages I mentioned above.
“And no, the Rapture does not occur after the signs you mentioned. It comes as a ‘thief in the night,’ when no one is expecting it. The day and hour no one knows. If it comes after a bunch of signs in the heavens, then people will be expecting it so logically that makes no sense.
When the Bible compares the return of Christ and the arrival of the Day of the Lord to the coming of a thief, we have to take a look at the context and what the passage actually says, rather than drawing conclusions about the meaning based on our own presuppositions. This is the essential difference between exegesis and eisegesis. In other words, it is the difference between truth and error. Let’s take a look at the relevant passages.
I think you will agree that your statement that no one is expecting it must be modified to exclude believers. Believers are expecting, waiting, and longing for the return of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 (NKJV)
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
The return of Christ/Day of Christ will not take us by surprise BECAUSE we are expecting this supremely important time, AND we can see the time coming closer by watching for the signs of His return. His return being like a thief does not preclude there beings signs, it just means that those who are not looking for Him and are unaware of the signs will be taken by surprise. He commands us to “watch” because there are signs. Otherwise, if His return was signless, He would only tell us to wait patiently (which is also a command regarding the return of the Lord). Take a look at what questions Jesus was answering in the Olivet Discourse. The disciples correctly understood that Christ’s coming and “The End” were synonymous and would be signaled ahead of time by signs. Jesus told them the seven signs that precede The End, His glorious appearing being the seventh sign that The End has arrived. Regarding the time He said it was not for them (and us) to know, but we are given specific signs.
Hebrews 10:24-25 (NKJV)
And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
We cannot see the Day approaching unless there are signs. Consider the consequences of those who are not expecting Christ’s return:
Revelation 3:3 (NKJV)
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
Matthew 24:42-51 (NKJV)
Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But if that evil servant says in his heart, “My master is delaying his coming,” and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Also, note that the context of Christ’s return here is AFTER the Great Tribulation. So, this should dispel the myth that Christ coming as a thief mandates a pre-tribulational and signless rapture.
Matthew 24:29-31 (NKJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Notice the similarity of this description and the one in Revelation 6:
Revelation 6:12-17 (NKJV)
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
When Christ comes again, it will be visible and will result in a national repentance by Israel.
Zechariah 12:10 (NKJV)
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Compare this with the sealing of the 144000 in Revelation 7 and the innumerable gathering of God’s elect taken out of the Great Tribulation in the same chapter.
All those who remain will mourn at His appearing, but for some it will be a mourning of repentance:
Revelation 1:7 (NKJV)
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
The Thessalonians still had some confusion over these end times events even after Paul wrote First Thessalonians and had thoroughly taught them about these things in person. Part of the confusion was thinking that the Tribulation and Persecution they were experiencing was the Day of the Lord. Paul corrects this by telling them it is appropriate for them to go through this now and for God to bring retribution on the world at the return of Christ. Consider whether the following passage can successfully fit within the pre-tribulation paradigm.
2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 (NKJV)
We ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Paul describes the return of Christ in terms of our entering into rest (therefore this is the rapture), and also coming with the holy angels who will, at that same time, pour out the fire of God’s wrath on the world. This cannot be at the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week because that seven-year period begins with peace, not God’s wrath. If, however, the rapture occurs AFTER the Great Tribulation but BEFORE the Day of Wrath, and is aligned with the timeline of events in Revelation, we see the rapture from Heaven’s perspective in chapter 6, and then God’s fiery wrath poured out by angels in the trumpet and bowl judgments that follow.
This sequence is further supported in the second chapter of Second Thessalonians:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 (NKJV)
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
Two things here must precede the Day of the Lord/The Rapture: an apostasy, and the revealing of Antichrist at the abomination of desolation. The Thessalonians did not miss the rapture. These signs had not occurred yet. Perhaps there was war, famine, disease, and natural disasters. Christians have experienced all of these things. But, as believers watching and waiting for Christ’s return, we should watch for these signs on a world level, in sequence, and in conjunction with a seven-year peace treaty, the rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem and its subsequent defilement by the Antichrist, and the signs in the heavens described repeatedly as an indication that the Great Tribulation has ended and the Day of Christ is imminent. Only then should we “look up for your redemption draws near.”
If so, Christians must anticipate the possibility of going through these hardships prior to Christ’s return. Other than the two things Paul mentions, and the signs in the heavens, Christians down through the centuries have experienced all of the signs of Christ’s return. But we will never experience God’s wrath. Also, if we are faithful prior to these things, we have a promise for God’s protection and provision during the time of Great Tribulation. Many will survive until the rapture and will not experience death. Others will die in the spiritual war with Antichrist. And that is part of how he will be defeated.
Revelation 12:11 (NKJV)
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
Later
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.