Posted on 03/10/2015 2:54:51 PM PDT by Jan_Sobieski
My personal take is that outside the presence of God there is no life. At all. Not the figure of speech type of life, but life. Living. Being. Consciousness.
i.e. apart from God nothing exists. The lost are no more. And their fate, according to the bible, is quite eternal.
Lazarus and the rich man is a parable. And a very important story. But it is not about a Christian “hell”.
http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/71/t/the-rich-man-and-lazarus.aspx
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Lazarus-byHuie.htm
You don’t know your Bible.
I’ve been studying it since 1981 and on top of that, in the last four years I’ve been at an occupation that puts me on the road two to three hours a day, in which a great deal of that time I listen to the bible. In that time I’ve gone through the bible twice, the new testament dozens of times and all sorts of favorite books (e.g. Ecclesiastes) even more than that.
Listening to it is a completely different experience. You get a different perspective that amplifies the standard reading and studying.
It’s one of the reasons I take the viewpoint I now take. One of the reasons...
Jeremy Moritz makes a lot of leaps in logic to prove his argument
I’ll go this far: I think the eternal torment meme was created by men for one of two, and maybe both of these reasons:
1. To scare people into an insincere salvation.
2. Control people’s behavior.
The character of God of the bible, in my opinion, does not include a punishment beyond the comprehension of the person being punished. And even then we need to get into the definition and purpose for punishment. Why do parents punish their kids?
You missed on thing in your little diatribe. Man is already going to hell.
But the point is very valid.
As for your error of believing that hell is simply annihilation you need to read scripture again.
For me there is virtually no doubt. But I say that in the vein of, now we see as through a glass darkly, but then face to face.
Falling away from Christianity or falling away from particular religions?
I belong to a non-denominational church that went from meeting in someone's house 5 years ago to having problems having enough seating for 3 services at 2 separate locations. People want to hear the Word and have Jesus glorified instead of dealing with all the "by rote sacraments and rites" (which you alluded that you weren't thrilled with either. I don't see a falling away from Christianity, but I do see folks leaving various religions for a more personal rendering of the Word. If prophesies are correct (and none have failed yet...) there will be a one-world religion as the end times get here - having a slew of non-religious Christians may very well come in handy (although the one-worlders will likely try to exterminate us)...
I'm sure to you it was.
The creation and scripture bears witness to the concept of “living death” and the idea is not so easy to vanquish. It began on the “day” the first humans disobeyed.
From the viewpoint of earth’s fallen human residents, both heaven and hell begin on the mortal coil. Hell is the ultimate of cursed ground; heaven of blessed.
The way I see it: the Lord would rather allow lost souls the tiny, shrunken pleasures of rage, blame, etc. than to put them out of existence altogether. It is an aspect of His love that should make us tremble: much forgiveness is offered within a certain framework, but never an excuse. Sowing hell is permitted and it reaps the same. But sowing heaven is permitted too.
A generalized Jesus (or indeed deity of any kind whether genuine or false) is of no perceived use to anyone. People expect God to interact from within a life.
As a “good evangelical” I disagree with certain newer theologies in the Catholic church. But I also observe that there are Catholics who have not allowed these issues to stop their actual personal sanctification. A God who could only bless you when you never made a mistake would be a God who could never bless you at all. Jesus conquers, in part through virtue of His destining power.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
: Yet you would say that punishment ends with annihilation?
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
No annihilation there.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
\ And again:
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Yet you say they are annihilated and it's over?
Those who claim hell is simply annihilation think that "destruction" means it's over but let's look at that word and it's meaning in ancient Greek.
2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (ólethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Greek - 3639 ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing." [http://biblehub.com/greek/3639.htm]
Well, that is not the way it goes down with Pharaoh and Esau. Even before he was born, before he did anything good or bad, God decided to hate him. And, before Pharaoh even met with Moses, God told Moses that He would harden his heart. Hmmm. I’m going with the Scriptures...you’re welcome to believe your tradition.
Yes. If there is one thing I’ve learned it is that opinions vary. :-)
The creation and scripture bears witness to the concept of “living death” and the idea is not so easy to vanquish. It began on the “day” the first humans disobeyed.
And in the old testament, every time God deals with the disobedient, his punishment is NEVER torture. It is always physical death, which is what the situation dealt with. Yes, even Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed.
And the “living death” thing preplexes me. Especially when the alternative is “eternal life”. So many times in the bible the fate of the lost is described as a) death and b) eternal. Their punishment is kinda like Adam and Eve. They were cast out of an eternity with God and they did, in fact, surely die. They began decomposing the day they left the garden.
I can find noe old testament examples of anyone’s “punishment” for disobedience being torture. It is always death and destruction. Always.
And that theme carries forward into the new testament - And John 3:16 is a primary example. I honestly compare the re-definition of words like “death”, “destruction”, “perish” to fit the “eternal suffering” meme to the Catholics that believe Mary was “ever virgin” arguing that the word used to call out Jesus’ brothers really meant “cousin”.
That is, when you take away your existing paradigm regarding the fate of the lost and read the bible fresh, focusin on any scripture that touches on the subject, there is a HUGE body of evidence supporting annihilation. And even the “proof scriptures” for “eternally suffering” comply with the annihilation interpretation.
But even beyond that, the annihilation interpretation more closely aligns with the personality of the God of the Bible.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Two words:
1. Everlasting: never ending. A condition that never changes.
2. Punishment: In this case, annihilation. And the condition never changes.
The punishment is annihilation and there is no second resurrection. they are gone, and permanently gone. There condition never changes.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
But 1 trumps 2. It’s in revelation. It must be interpretted with great care.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
That is from a parable. The lesson Jesus is teaching is not about our eternal fate.
When you have to insert words into scripture you have lost your case.
Please post the scripture where you find it worded that way. Surely you're not changing the words of scripture again are you?
Just how low do you have to reach to justify your beliefs?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.