Retired 777 Pilot Calls the Show (Rush Limbaugh)

RushLimbaugh.com ^ | 3-18-2014 | Rush Limbaugh

[GBA]

I agree that it can fly at FL450, perhaps fly well at that altitude, but can't an airplane stall at any altitude or attitude or power setting, if you do it right or wrong, as the case may be?

However, it's my understanding that it's a bit more demanding to fly at that altitude than at lower flight levels and easier to get into trouble.

And, if there was a fight of some sort for control of the a/c, or if it did stall as some speculate, then it could have stalled due to the engine, trim and/or control settings or some other reason, especially that high.

Lots to speculate about with no real info to go on other than our recent history with allah's friends and pilots.

[B4Ranch]

AF447 stalled into the water. It didn’t hit nose first.

[Hot Tabasco]

This one will never be found and no one will ever know what happened.

Gee, ya think? Maybe this retired pilot who is the topic of this thread might be the only person logically explaining what likely happened after all..............LOL!

[saywhatagain]

Uhmmmm interesting

A tire snubber, as we call it. Or brake gear? As others call it, is not necessary for the explanation i gave. Am too lazy to look up several incidents that it has occurred.

Again, a nose wheel tire exploding from expansion of overheat during the rotation in and of itself would NOT fill the cockpit with smoke, However, damage an exploding tire could cause in the E and E bay Most certainly could. Any pilot saying otherwise, well they can just keep on believing that..

[usconservative]

Any pilot saying otherwise, well they can just keep on believing that..

Your qualifications to say that are what exactly? You have 18,000 flying hours to back up that statement? The Pilot who said it certainly does.

[stlnative]

thks for the ping

[zipper]

Having said that, an onboard fire may not disable everyone or anyone, initially. However an exploding nose wheel tire can do alot of damage or one that "catches fire" . The nose wheel tire is located very near what is called the electronic and equipment bay or as some refer, the E and E bay. An exploding tire, or slow burn could theoretically damage critical components knocking out electric power to communication equipment. And or damage other electronic equipment so as to create a high load on other equipment, causing electric busses to start disengaging. A nose wheel tire can become overheated during the takeoff roll. It happens when a plane is heavily loaded, warm temperatures, long takeoff roll, late rotation, or rotation close to max tire speed. Not really uncommon. In the scenario many are suspecting, is that smoke began to fill the cockpit. Oxygen masks are on and an immediate turn to the nearest airport is made. The climbing and descending can be because the autopilot has also become disengaged, that would explain why it took so much altitude to recover. But as the 777 captain says, the oxygen system would have also become disabled or depleted and that is most unlikely. Very rarely to we find what is called dual failures. The airplane would not necessarily be on fire enough to bring it down immediately. Small, fire, damaging equipment, producing smoke and might even go away if the oxygen source, (high altitude in an unpressurized bay) goes away and or fuel source is not enough to continue the fire. Plausible but i am not buying it myself. But its the closest to Ocam razor that I have read.

All good points, but let's remember they flew to after leveloff, about 40 minutes after takeoff before they dropped off secondary radar.

First, as the captain (caller to Rush) pointed out, wheel fires are almost always brake-related. There are no nose gear brakes.

The 777 is a very sophisticated airplane. The caller could have gone on to say a nose gear fire would have manifested long before level-off. There are tire pressure sensors that would have generated alerts even before a fire might have happened, not only based on minimum or maximum pressures, but on pressure differentials with adjacent tires exceeding a preset value. These sensors would have alerted the crew to a tire in the process of deflation. We know they didn't have a tire failure (catastrophic) on takeoff or they would have returned immediately, or at least after dumping fuel, because the alert system would have told them they had a tire failure. Likewise if there were a nosewheel bearing failure -- the temps would have taken longer to climb but they would've blown the fuse plugs (deflating the nw tires) long before level-off. And lastly the temps at FL350 are very cold. The tires cool as they are exposed to the airstream before retraction, and then they cool again as the jet climbs rapidly to outside temps of around minus 50C at 35k. So the chances of an overheated tire causing problems are attenuated by the low temps in the unpressurized nosewheel well. Additionally, they weren't really very heavy -- they had 50 empty seats and only 8 or so hours of fuel. This is an airplane when fully fueled can go about 14 hours, so this was not a heavyweight takeoff, and it was at night when the temps are lower.

I think the nosewheel fire scenario is highly improbable.

[CFIIIMEIATP737]

Correct, an airplane can stall at any attitude, altitude, or power setting.

Sometimes my newbie co-pilots want to hand fly at high altitude. It is more difficult because the air is thin, so it is harder to maintain heading and altitude. But the autopilot handles it very well.

A stall at that altitude would take a significant amount of altitude to recover.

[stlnative]

LV Dave, thks for the ping !

[eldoradude]

May 28, 1987 Mathias Rust landed in Red Square in Moscow.

Air defense isn't as solid as people would have you believe...

The Captain was a relative of Malysia's jailed opposition leader - hmmm.

I think the caller's right - the jet is fish food.

[saywhatagain]

Yuo,

ok maybe not 18,000, flew corporate too long.before going commercial. 15,000 hours 35 years. Safety manager and internal company investigator.of two crashes and far to many incidents.

Seen my share of pretty unusual anomilies

[zipper]

I think the least likely is pilot suicide. Theft, flight deck fire, and hijack are all plausible. As well, an “accidental” shoot down by one of the countries within 7 hours of KUL

Okay then, my list at this moment:

1) hijack

2) stolen by crew (one or both)

3) pilot rage ending in suicide or crash

4) sabotage ending in crash

5) catastrophic systems failure (electrical fire, structural failure)

6) remote recall by Boeing for warranty ignition switch replacement

[saywhatagain]

Arghhhhh. LOL

You all are thinking too narrowly. The theory is saying the nose wheel tire was the "initial" source of the problem. Overheat due to exceeding tire speed limit on the takeoff roll or any other numerous causes.

The exploding tire OR tire on fire, who knows who cares, can and has created damage to critical components in the E and E bay. Any one of those damaged components then can cause shutdown of that component or others. And from that damage IS the source of the smoke or fire.

[usconservative]

Thanks, nice to know we have someone with actual expertise in this area on FR.

[Tzfat]

Now that you mention it, Boeing is that evil!

[saywhatagain]

You make some very good points of why it can not be the nose wheel tire, however

Recheck you flight times. It was only 50 minutes after takeoff before the problem occurred. Not unusual for and exploding tire and damaged components to take that long to manifest itself.

[usconservative]

I think the least likely is pilot suicide.

Given the pilot's wife and family left him the day before the flight, I'm not so sure I'd rule pilot suicide out.

[GOPJ]

Thanks

[usconservative]

It was only 50 minutes after takeoff before the problem occurred. Not unusual for and exploding tire and damaged components to take that long to manifest itself.

True, things can smolder for quite awhile undetected until its too late.

Another pilot (link I posted earlier on this thread) speculated it was the likely the nosewheel gear/tire that smoldered and finally either caught fire or filled the cabin with smoke.

Speculation then went to the pilot changing course as the radar and records show, BUT the course correction was to the closest airport Palau Langkawi a 13,000 foot strip with an approach over water at night with no obstacles. He did not turn back to Kuala Lampur because he knew he had 8,000 foot ridges to cross. He knew the terrain was friendlier towards Langkawi and also a shorter distance. Before they could make it to Palau Langkawi the pilot, co-pilot and perhaps passengers as well were overcome by the smoke and went unconscious. Plane kept flying on the course set until it ran out of fuel and crashed in the Indian Ocean, some seven hours later.

Whether or not that's what actually happen we may never know, but that's one of the two or three reasonable explanations I've read.

In some ways, it's reminiscent of the Payne Stewart tragedy years ago.

[Chainmail]

I guess you haven’t seen many jet crashes. I have and they end up the size of cornflakes. Human remains are usually chips of bone or a tooth somewhere. I found what was left of an A-7 that hit the side of a mountain. All that was left was a scorched area of burned brush and little bits of painted aluminum.