Posted on 02/05/2010 5:25:26 PM PST by KevinDavis
Project Orion was the next step, failing that NERVA, then Dynasoar. All canceled because there is no real vision, no real leadership, and no national goals. And now, no good education.
“He’s right on this IMO, there is no good reason to return to the moon again at the present.”
Tell that to the Chinese, Indians, Russsians, Japanese, Btits, and Europeans. All of whom are making firm plans to go to the Moon, and to Mars and none of whom are looking to private companies.
“Yes but the moon is so far away for all of that.”
So was the New World in 1492.
“I suggest that if you start to consider all of the logistics involved for either one of those ventures with our current technologies (especially propulsion) it becomes not doable in the next 30/40 years or so.”
And the propulsion tech does exist - a la NERVA, or Orion - it is simpily we do not choose to use it. Other countries may not be so short sighted.
Since you didn’t ask - I sat on the front lines during the race to the moon - and it was worth it. Unless you would have preferred learning Russian like I did - no easy task.
None of that was BS - it was always a matter of life and death - something the media concealed from the public most of the time. I guess you would have had to have been there to appreciate what we few (watching over the Russian space program, and military movements) did to keep you safe and non-Russian speaking.
“NASA has become nothing more than an obnoxious waste of money on a huge PR campaign”
Nothing a good house cleaning could not fix - if there was any political will to do so.
Then you'll have to live with my lack of gratitude. Well after the fact it was admitted there was no missile gap. It was never an either/or matter of Dyna Soar or rocketry and the Soviets never made it to the Moon. Dyna Soar was in progress and would have served as both the next step up from X-15 and as an orbital vehicle lifted by advanced Titan rockets.
“Then you’ll have to live with my lack of gratitude.”
Typical response of one who has no clue, who never served, who could care less what others did to keep their right to disagree. Who only lives in an armchair...
I was in the Army for three years, one year in Vietnam. I was not in combat.
Your attacking the messenger response is interesting as you've said nothing substantive about Dyna Soar.
Well then, thank you for your service.
DynaSoar was the correct design (USAF) for a LEO vehicle, but it was not the way to go for manned space exploration - something their was really no political will to do in the first place. Had the premise of manned space exploration beyond LEO been true, Orion and later NERVA would have been fully funded. We would have been (under Orion) on Mars in 65, and Venus by 74.
You still have no clue why manned space exploration is of extreme importance to our national defense. And I’m sure nothing said will change your mind. But unless America finds the political will to go beyond LEO, the US is finished and the long retreat begins. And ends in dusty villages, ruined cities, wide-spread Third World poverty and hunger.
Poor analogy, sailing/oceanic navigation and boat construction were well known science and arts in 1492.
Nerva is the propulsion system and Orion is the vehicle IIRC, neither are ready to scale up for a trip to Mars and back IMO.
As far as mining on the Moon, that’s an awfully expensive proposition for what gain right now? What did we find there last time that makes the project imperative?
I am not against inter-planetary exploration per se, I just dont think we’re there yet.
I met Yeager in 1991, in Indianapolis, I was not impressed.
A 7 year old boy asked for a autograph and he said not now kid, never looked at him just walked off the ramp. There were 6 people on the ramp, no one was hounding him, just a small boy who wanted 10 seconds.
To hard, eh? I can just hear Queen Isabella telling that to Columbus.
“Poor analogy, sailing/oceanic navigation and boat construction were well known science and arts in 1492.”
Sorry you don’t like the analogy. But exploration beyond coastlines was viewed in 15th century Europe as a death sentence. No private trading company was willing to take the ecomonic risk, even if they could have found crews or maps (maps were the ultra classified, eyes only state secrets of the time). Just as today no private company is willing to go beyond LEO they do not have access to the classified lunar maps (cf USN Clementine mapping mission), nor the funds or tech to go in the first place.
“Nerva is the propulsion system and Orion is the vehicle IIRC, neither are ready to scale up for a trip to Mars and back IMO.”
NERVA was a planned propulsion system specifially designed for long space voyages and had nothing to do with Orion.
Orion was to use small nuclear charges (once clear of the atmosphere) for propulsion. Ist version payoad was 10,000 tons, crew compliment was 150. 2nd version was 40,000,000 ton payload.
There was no worry about radiation, since there was no practical weight limit on the amount of water on board (to be used as sheilding), and no worries about bone loss, as ship was designed to generated its own by rotation.
“As far as mining on the Moon, that’s an awfully expensive proposition for what gain right now? What did we find there last time that makes the project imperative?”
If you wait until the Chinese begin moon mining ops, then it will be too late. The moon and later Mars will belong to them. H3 is what we found - the key to sustainable thermonuclear power generation. Also the only place that highly efficient, cheap, solar panels can be mass produced from the abundant silicon on the surface.
“I am not against inter-planetary exploration per se, I just dont think we’re there yet.”
We are there. It is simpily that everytime someone comes up with a realistic means of manned sapce travel, someone else quashes it for one reason or another. All realistic means of long term space travel involves nuclear power - either by fission or by fusion. Everything else is just theory. A workable Orion could be built today.
Yeager’s right. NASA’s manned program has been undermined by politicians since the late 1960’s. It’s too bad they can’t give the money to the nerds and let them decide what to do, as is done with the unmanned program. NASA’s manned program was at its peak when it was guided by Von Braun’s amateur rocket club.
'is' is not 'was.' The Apollo project was, like the non-existent missile gap, political. And stepping on the Moon was not space exploration. A gradualist approach to space exploration would have been more valuable and less expensive.
“Other, more fanciful nuclear propulsion ideas were proposed, too. One, Project Orion, would have been powered by nuclear bombs. The physicist Freeman Dyson, who worked on the project, told The New York Times Magazine he saw it “as the solution to a problem. With one trip we’d have got rid of 2,000 bombs.”
“Orion was a delightful scientific exercise, but not very feasible,” McDaniel said.”
If it was remotely doable there would have been at least some political will for it in at least one administration since Kennedy's.
He is still a hero to me and he is entitled to his opinion. I think it’s too bad we have to tarnish someone because of one little difference of opinion, and that is mine.
You lived off of tax dollars.
I remember the single minded commitment to beat Russia to the moon
We sure did. The Soviets weren't able.
I remember an America with a 'can-do' mentality where we Americans could do anything
Yeah, that 'throw enough tax money at it' mentality. The Adlai Stevenson/JFK political ploy of claiming we were trailing the Soviets. And all the while the conservatives of that era were futilely attempting to interject some reality into the debate.
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