Posted on 01/21/2009 4:06:15 PM PST by JoeProBono
Actually, what harmed cockers was not inbreeding or linebreeding, it was indiscriminate breeding. When a breed becomes popular people see $$$. There are those out there who just start putting together any 2 examples of a breed because the puppies will sell easily. They don’t research, they don’t breed toward a standard (and all breed standards talk about temperament, not just conformation). They just breed. THIS is what produces large numbers of poorly bred dogs.
Even having said there, there were still nice cockers to be had, but just became the minority.
The problem is showing for conformation. When you do that, it puts the emphasis on stupid ideas like length of nose, and takes it away from anything useful.
Happily, MOST Border Collies aren't registered with the AKC - although the AKC is so large & powerful that it is an uphill battle.
My Aussie cross and Border Collie - neither would meet with AKC approval: 
And you base this on what?
People tend to go for the unusual colors (hence the popularity of *white goldens* which in fact are simple a cream color, popularized by Oprah Winfrey). I always think it’s funny that chocolate labs are so popular, since they are simply brown dogs. I think people like the idea of chocolate (if anyone has a chocolate lab, I’m not saying they aren’t pretty, but I think marketing them as chocolate was a stroke of genius!)
BTW I have a good friend who shows parti cockers, she also does obedience, tracking and agility with her dogs.
Just years of experience in the dog game...nothing more.
Hounds are very independent, they weren’t bred to work closely with a handler like sporting dogs. I don’t know how bright afghans are, but it doesn’t surprise me that they don’t respond like most of the more popular breeds. I think they are more like cats in that way. BTW that’s why I prefer sporting breeds. Generations of being bred to work closely with a handler shows.
Yes, I’m sure you’ve heard that before (PETA agrees with you).
I’m not going to argue the merits of breeding to a standard with you, you clearly have your mind made up. I’m not up to pointless tasks.
I think when you say something like that you should back it up. BTW I don’t breed cockers, so I have no skin in the game. Just tell me what makes you say that. In fact, be more specific, when you say professional breeders, who are you talking about? A pro is someone who makes money at something, so I suppose if you toss in puppy mills you might have a point there.
Our Bischon died 5 months ago. My wife was heartbroken (so was I). I want another dog but she says no way she’ll ever go through that again. Any advice on how to get her to changes her mind?
PETA does NOT agree with me. However, the AKC has ruined many breeds. Breeding for conformation is stupid. If you need a small dog, get one from the pound. If you need a retriever, get one bred to retrieve.
I’m HOPING the Border Collies will escape. Goodness knows, the GSD and Aussie haven’t.
Absolutely PETA agrees with you that dogs should not be bred for show. The AKC doesn’t breed dogs, so they’ve ruined nothing. Breeders decide what direction a breed takes. AKC doesn’t even write the standard, breeder do. I know some of the border collie folks don’t like AKC and frankly, not a soul will make anyone register their dog if they don’t want to. AKC is just an easy punching bag.
The AKC wrote the ‘standard’ when they took the Border Collie. There weren’t any reputable breed clubs to do it for them. They had no support from breeders (even now, 90% don’t register with the AKC), but they didn’t want a popular breed to exist outside their world.
The AKC shows tell breeders what to breed for, since you don’t win unless you breed for the extremes approved by AKC judges. If you look at an AKC show of Border Collies, they all look alike...same amount of black & white, long hair only, St Bernard looking head.
When you breed for show, you MUST de-emphasize other traits, like intelligence, retrieving, herding...look at what happened to Australian Shepherds.
PETA believes dogs shouldn’t be bred for anything, including to be pets. They believe people and dogs should have nothing to do with each other. They particularly oppose dogs being used for herding, or other jobs. They don’t agree with me on squat.
Yes, they do agree with you about show breeding, Ingrid Newkirk has talked about it.
As for the rest of your post, I disagree with your entire assertion. Of course, you and I could go round and round about it, but it there wouldn’t be a point to it, since we won’t change each others opinions. Just suffice it to say that breeders are not forced to breed to a standard, and the vast majority of standards were written by breeders (and I suspect the border collie one was also, just not breeders who were approved by the group who did want AKC recognition—but I will stand corrected if you can show me some proof of that).
Certainly, someone can breed for one trait to the exclusion of all others, however to say that all show breeders do that is as silly as me saying all border collies can herd sheep. Most of the show breeders I know also do something else with their dogs, be in hunt tests, actual hunting, obedience, agility, tracking, etc.
You know, I never feel the need to denigrate people who DON’T participate in AKC events with their dogs. I’m just glad they love them.
Two of our Cockers are parti. One Red/White and a Black/White, the other is Buff. I laughed at your chocolate comments, all these people wanted chocolate cockers after Oprah had two chocolate cockers. They are actually my least favorite color for the breed.
I was always partial to tri colored cockers until I saw my first parti. They are so pretty and flashy. And, even tho I have goldens, I gotta say there is not much cuter than a parti colored cocker puppy. I would have a cocker, but I just am not willing to do the coat (for show).
“In December 1994, at a meeting where the Border Collie was not even on its agenda, the AKC Board of Directors voted to recognize the Border Collie, to begin registering it in February 1995, and to begin conformation showing of Border Collies in October 1995. Although AKC had always maintained that it is the parent breed club, intimately familiar with its breed, that adopts the breed standard and sets the policies for its breed, on this occasion AKC did not designate a parent club for the Border Collie. AKC, which of course had no previous familiarity with Border Collies except for issuing them ILP numbers, itself adopted a breed standard that defines what a Border Collie should be and how it should look. AKC did not designate a parent club for the Border Collie until August 1996, when it finally chose the BCSA. Since all the Border Collie registries were opposed to recognition, none of them furnished their studbooks to AKC. Consequently, AKC has been registering Border Collies based on papers sent in by their owners.”
The AKC later allowed the BCSA to amend the standard. And since 90% of current Border Collie registrations are outside the AKC, it is a pretty safe bet that most Border Collie breeders don’t support the BCSA, either.
But it isn’t just Border Collies. The Aussies fought and lost, and lost the breed in the process. If you want a good lab, you have to find a breeder that breeds for retrieving, not show. There is something wrong with an organization that makes it hard to find breeders that breed for the traits that built a breed.
Also, PETA opposes ALL breeding, not just breeding for show.
“You know, I never feel the need to denigrate people who DON’T participate in AKC events with their dogs. I’m just glad they love them.”
The folks outside the AKC aren’t a threat to the AKC. It is the AKC that is a threat to working / sporting breeds. You might as well say, “Why say rude things about the virus? It isn’t rude to the host...”
our Lady was a show dog when we got her at 8 months... that means full show coat — in Arizona — in August... we took her down to the puppy cut we keep out dogs in the very next day. Top knot, feathers on the legs about two inches long, feathered ears abd a feather on the end of their tale and everything else shaved. We do have to take the legs shorter in the summer or the get too knotted out on the lake.
Missie
and Lady
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