Define Loyalty

http://bethemaverick.blogspot.com ^ | 9/29/08 | Rick Mave

[Grunthor]

“They ask: Where is my party loyalty?”

For much of the last eight years I asked the same question about Juan....yet I am going to vote for mccain/PALIN on November 4th.

[Rick Mave]

Sincere apologies to the community, then—I wasn’t aware self-promotion was frowned upon as improper etiquette. Also I’ll apologize for my lack of credibility (as judged by not having an identity here prior to now)—I’ve never felt prompted to enter the e-shere before.

Other than that I’ll hide nothing and make no more apologies, but more disclosure: I was active as a volunteer (and donor) to the Romney campaign during the primaries here in Florida. I waited patiently as McCain played out his dramatic VP selection for what should’ve been an obviously sensible choice. Two guys theoretically cut-out, tailormade to tackle the two serious issues of our age: war and the economy...McCain’s lack of economic IQ would be complemented by Romney’s ace of spades, which would free McCain to pursue his passion of national security / foreign policy....in other words: country first). Instead McCain goes out and undermines the core of his campaign (Obama is too inexperienced to be President) by finding and selecting the one person who has even less experience.

What happened is McCain couldn’t find a way to slip Joe Lieberman by us, so as punishment he didn’t do the sensible thing that we wanted (picking Romney) and so he decided to pick someone to give his convention a pop. A cultural play. An ideological nod. A smokescreen, or yes, lipstick. I feel so badly for Palin. This isn’t even much her fault. She got thrust into this totally unprepared, clueless of her selection. The poorness of her pick totally reflects on McCain, not Sarah. Now she’s getting torn up by the liberal media and conservatives are shaking their heads. The damage McCain’s doing to her future potential is a microcosm of what he will do to the Republican party if he’s elected, which forces all of the congressional republicans and everyone else coming up the ladder to pose, to advocate for McCain’s agenda. And that’s a record that is Democrat Lite. And that is not good for the country. If we’re going to have liberal stuff done, then I’d prefer it be done by an admitted Democrat, not a closeted one.

And please, no degree of SCOTUS scare tactic will frighten me into some sort of omega line mindset that McCain needs to win. We put 7 of the 9 damn justices on the court now and they still don’t rule properly. What’s the answer, what do we need, we need 8 of 9, 9 of 9 to get 5 of them to rule accordingly? That’s stupid.

Another scoff I have is for the notion that we can’t recover from a President Obama. Uh, well it’s been a country with a brief timeline but jam packed full of rich history and great tragedy and seemingly insurmountable obstacles yet we’ve always come out on top. So we can recover from one or two terms of anyone.

[AmericanMade1776]

OneWingedShark wrote: If you’ll allow me to explain. I don’t believe that Barak Obama as president would be the WORST thing that ever happened to America

Yeah maybe Obama is not Osama, but there is only one letter's difference. Obama is a liar, ant-American, socialist, do nothing, empty suit... and a friend of Hamas, al Quaeda, Iran amanutjob, Chavez. Obama is the worst thing that could happen to America ..he is.

OneWingedShark wrote: Remember that Saddam killed [or had killed] thousands on thousands of his own countrymen. If any American President tried to do the same, I am confident that both myself and my fellow service members would be able, willing, and justified in forcibly removing him from office... and that isn’t treason we’re talking, it’s our oath to protect from enemies, both foreign and domestic.

You should move to maybe another country ..say Venzuela.. they have a President there that the Military needs to take out. sheeesh.

[OneWingedShark]

>Yeah maybe Obama is not Osama, but there is only one letter’s difference.

And there’s only a single letter’s difference between wine and dine, rape and rope, house and mouse and louse... you’re making an irrelevant point. (As opposed to actually showing a compare/contrast between Obama and Osama.)

>Obama is a liar,

He’s a politician; it’s a given. By the way, did I ever say he wasn’t?

>anti-American, socialist,

Again, did I say he wasn’t?

>do nothing, empty suit...

If that’s the case then why don’t you want him to win? Being hopelessly ineffectual is quite different from being capable and willing to effect evil. Which is it, evil or ineffectual?

> and a friend of Hamas, al Quaeda, Iran amanutjob, Chavez.
> Obama is the worst thing that could happen to America
> ..he is.

Why? I’m saying this because I want to know how one man can bring this country down, especially where there are those like myself (and presumably yourself) who are concerned about keeping it up.

>You should move to maybe another country ..say Venzuela..
>they have a President there that the Military needs to
>take out. sheeesh

Are you trying to be insulting? What I said was that I believe even if Obama were elected president AND he proves to be both utterly moral-less and evil that will not be the end of America. My previous post was taking into account a worst-case scenario, which it seems you ascribe to.

However, you have said nothing to address why my worst-case scenario is a) worse than I project, b) worth more concern (a more likely occurrence) than I believe, or even c) something to make me think McCain is a better choice for me than I currently believe.

I thought America was about debating things and letting the better ideas win (1st amendment), yet you claim to love this country so much you ask me, a veteran, to leave it?

I’ve DONE things, like being enlisted for 8 years as of yesterday. Have you done anything other than run your mouth?

If so, I’d be glad to hear it. What is your EXPERIENTIAL knowledge in this matter? (Just to be clear, we’re talking about leadership here.)

[OneWingedShark]

> Sincere apologies to the community, then—I wasn’t aware self-promotion was frowned upon as improper etiquette.

Accepted. I'll just accept that you made the honest mistake; you've been fairly well reasoned and articulate and respectful. (Disagreement ≠ disrespect.)

> And please, no degree of SCOTUS scare tactic will frighten me into some sort of omega line mindset that McCain needs to win. We put 7 of the 9 damn justices on the court now and they still don’t rule properly. What’s the answer, what do we need, we need 8 of 9, 9 of 9 to get 5 of them to rule accordingly? That’s stupid.

Indeed. I agree with you here. If we put 7 of 9 judges on the supreme court, then it only stands to reason that the weird rulings are, to some degree, our own fault.

>Another scoff I have is for the notion that we can’t recover from a President Obama. Uh, well it’s been a country with a brief timeline but jam packed full of rich history and great tragedy and seemingly insurmountable obstacles yet we’ve always come out on top. So we can recover from one or two terms of anyone.

My point EXACTLY! (See my previous post.)

[AmericanMade1776]

OneWingedShark wrote: I thought America was about debating things and letting the better ideas win (1st amendment), yet you claim to love this country so much you ask me, a veteran, to leave it?

I am calling you a LIAR, as I never asked you to leave this country. You hyperventilated that, and because you lied about that How do I know you are telling the truth about anything.

OneWingedShark wrote: I’ve DONE things, like being enlisted for 8 years as of yesterday. Have you done anything other than run your mouth? If so, I’d be glad to hear it. What is your EXPERIENTIAL knowledge in this matter? (Just to be clear, we’re talking about leadership here.)

Thanks for serving this country, oh by the way Obama has never fought to protect this country or wear the uniform of an American Solider, and he is the one who is lacking in leadership and running his mouth off, and you seem to be OKAY with Obama being president. You are lame in your arguements and defense of Obama.

[OneWingedShark]

>I am calling you a LIAR, as I never asked you to leave this country

>>You should move to maybe another country ..say Venzuela..
>>they have a President there that the Military needs to
>>take out. sheeesh

You’re right, you didn’t directly ASK me to leave. However, it looks strongly implied, and as a result I tried to address it. Was that a ‘lie’? Or simply miscommunication?

>Thanks for serving this country,

You’re welcome.

>oh by the way Obama has never fought to protect this country or wear the uniform of an
>American Solider, and he is the one who is lacking in leadership and running his mouth off,

I never implied that he was or did anything of the sort.

>and you seem to be OKAY with Obama being president.

I didn’t say that either.

>You are lame in your arguements and defense of Obama.

That would be because I’m NOT DEFENDING him. Go back and read what I’m saying, I’m saying that I believe America to be strong enough to withstand even him as the president. I am defending me fellow Americans, not Obama.

That said, you still have not said anything to make me want to vote for McCain, or even convinced me that a third-party vote is a vote for Obama.

[OneWingedShark]

>Vote your conscience and live with your choice.

You may mean it as sarcastic, but it is actually good and wise advice; for those who do not violate their conscience are never filled with regret for violating it.

[Hulka]

>>And please, no degree of SCOTUS scare tactic will frighten me into some sort of omega line mindset that McCain needs to win. We put 7 of the 9 damn justices on the court now and they still don’t rule properly. What’s the answer, what do we need, we need 8 of 9, 9 of 9 to get 5 of them to rule accordingly? That’s stupid<<

Not actually having some sort of conservative or republican nominate SCOTUS justices assures ALL 9 of 9 would be liberal.

Now that would be stupid!

[AmericanMade1776]

OneWingedShark wrote: I’m saying, I’m saying that I believe America to be strong enough to withstand even him as the president. I am defending me fellow Americans, not Obama.

I am defending my fellow Americans too, by not wishing an Obama Presidency on Americans, it would be devastating,and why should we wish that on America. I do not want my country to have to go thru it. I am hoping for better.

[OneWingedShark]

Ok, then tell me not only the WHY, but the HOW.

How can one man bring this nation down?

[AmericanMade1776]

OneWingedShark wrote: Ok, then tell me not only the WHY, but the HOW. How can one man bring this nation down?

since you have been serving in the Military for eight years, I suppose you started right out of high school, and so now you are about 26? The path downward doesn't happen suddenly, he happens it steps. This country suffered some downward spirals during the Clinton years, you might or might not remember some of the things that happened during the Clinton years as you were in High School. Sometimes a descent can be so slow you dont even realize it is happening.

How could the sane people of German follow Hitler and kill Jews? How could sane people follow Obama who would put no pre conditions to speaking with the enemies of this country, but many pre conditions to debating McCain.?

Why would you think that who the President of the United States is, is of no significance to the security of this country? or that it could not have irrepairable dangers to this country..you are naive.

[OneWingedShark]

>Not actually having some sort of conservative or republican nominate SCOTUS justices assures ALL 9 of 9 would be liberal.

I think that’s the original poster’s point. Even though we DO have supposedly conservative nominees, we still have a SC that rules quite liberally. Therefore the implication does not hold. (Implications are only false when the ‘effect’ fails to happen but the ‘cause’ does.)

[OneWingedShark]

Again you misread me. I am not saying that who the president happens to be is of no consequence. Where do you get that?

And what about the other people in office? The president isn’t the ONLY word that counts. I mean look at this Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac thing, those were our Houses!

The bailout isn’t happening because of our overwhelming dissent over it... or am I missing something here?

Or are you saying that I should blindly follow whomever The Party throws up as a nomination?

Let me put things another way; Respect is a two way street, but so is loyalty. If the party wants to keep its members, then it needs to be about what it says it stands for... like, say, financial responsibility. Or am I missing something here?

[Eagle of Liberty]

And what about the other people in office? The president isn’t the ONLY word that counts. I mean look at this Fannie Mae / Freddie Mac thing, those were our Houses!

What do you mean "our" houses? Do you realize who ran Congress almost exclusively for a LONG time? If there is one thing that the Dems demonstrated when out of control from 2002 to 2006 was that they could still muck up the works. It was the Republicans that have been trying to reform Fannie and Freddie. Dems like Barney Frank became permanent obstacles.

And the risk ISN'T one man. The risk is a Dem President AND a Dem controlled Congress with a veto-proof majority. That is a complete possibility this time around AND with that setup, they will push through any legislation that they want AND they can nominate whomever they want as a Supreme Court Justice. And don't forget that we are still trying to overcome some of the New Deal legislation that was enacted during FDR's reign. Did you know that Fannie Mae began under FDR as part of the New Deal vision?

THESE are the risks that I will think about as I weigh my decision on who to vote for. In 1992, I voted for Perot and got Clinton instead. It can be argued that the country was not destroyed because of him, but look at what we have had to deal with during and since him? He took ZERO action against terrorism and the enemy was emboldened. He placed Liberal Activist Judges everywhere that he could in this country. He turned the White House into a brothel. He led the way for terms like Moral Relativism and Global Economy to permeate throughout this country and he presided over Barney Frank's wishes of using Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as complete socialist programs.

But as I said in my last post, vote your conscience. I just know that MY conscience will not be at peace if I vote third party or I choose not to vote and Obama becomes the next President.

[OneWingedShark]

Now you’re starting to give me some reasons; excellent!
{By ‘our’ in my previous post I was saying ‘our houses’ as in the possessive, like “our parents”, and ‘our’ as in the US’s... or is the current House and/or Senate not America’s?}

[OneWingedShark]

Also, it might help if, when someone is asking you to explain you cite this: http://www.faithfreedom.org/obama.html

{Which I found yesterday.}

[Eagle of Liberty]

quite an interesting link! I will read it in full later.