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Transcripts of Trial - Border Agents Compean and Ramos
DOJ - U.S. Attorney's Office (Johnny Sutton) ^ | February 13, 2007

Posted on 02/13/2007 6:40:43 PM PST by calcowgirl

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To: Iwo Jima

He still shot at the guy. Missing doesn't relieve him of responsibility for the crime.

Which is one reason why I find this entire discussion of whether the bullet was his or not a red herring, and a distraction.

Note: Compean didn't hit the guy at all, and got more time than Ramos.


381 posted on 02/19/2007 1:13:55 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT; Iwo Jima
Your timeline doesn't agree with calcowgirl's at this post. Her timeline has the 2nd complete ballistics test done on march 18th.

There is nothing in IJ's timeline that conflicts with mine. I was referring to the first ballistics test (below) of the bullet. I saw no evidence of a second ballistics test (that would have required Ramos' weapon), except that one is implied in the affidavit.

March 18, 2005: The El Paso Crime Lab has completed test of bullet and JJ Correa writes letter stating that bullet provided to them could have come from a .40 S&W caliber Beretta (among other manufacturers named)
382 posted on 02/19/2007 1:17:17 PM PST by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: Iwo Jima
Even things that those in the know just take as a given, as SOP, will be made known to a public that will be aghast at how easily almost anyone can be thrown in prison if they get crossways with the wrong people.

This of course has nothing to do with the transcripts, but I have to ask -- what was so great about Compean and Ramos that the President decided they had to be taken out? What did they do to get "crossways" so that they had to be framed with a shooting? How did those framing them get them to shoot their weapons and not report it?

It's bad enough pushing some grand conspiracy theory -- but when it doesn't even make sense?

383 posted on 02/19/2007 1:18:10 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: calcowgirl
How long do you think it takes for a competent technician to fire a bullet and compare it to an existing sample?

Here is a web page that discusses the technique. It doesn't look like it should take more than a couple of hours to perform the tests, but can someone who has a friend in the FBI call or e-mail them and ask how long it should take them to do one bullet match?

384 posted on 02/19/2007 1:27:40 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
The man with the bullet in him still had the bullet in him weeks later, and walked into the office to have it removed.

Vol 6, p.277

13 Q. And when you go to Juarez and meet with him, do you find
14 that he's injured?
15 A. Yes, ma'am.
16 Q. What is wrong?
17 A. When he walked into the American consulate, he had a -- he
18 was limping. He had crutches, and he had a large -- he had a
19 catheter coming out. It was like a red hose, and it was
20 attached to a large urine bag.

385 posted on 02/19/2007 1:38:48 PM PST by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: Arizona Carolyn

I simply noted that relying on reports from people who say drug dealers should be a noble profession, in an argument that the BP agents were justified in shooting an unarmed man because he was a drug smuggler, was inconsistant.


386 posted on 02/19/2007 1:44:35 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT

Every prosecutor has to make judgment calls based on evidence and how he thinks his supervisor (who in this case is the President of the USA) wants the case to be handled.

ALL the spinning in the world cannot change the facts, as this official Guber'mint chart shows.

387 posted on 02/19/2007 1:52:42 PM PST by investigateworld (Abortion stops a beating heart)
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To: calcowgirl

Thanks. I couldn't remember where that was.

Remember also that the other agents said that they saw Davilas having to be helped to the car on the other side of the border.


388 posted on 02/19/2007 2:11:40 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Charles, some of the disagreement comes from what is and what is not a crime. Firing at the illegal could be a crime if the Agents truly knew/thought he was unarmed. If they "knew"/thought he was armed there was no crime.

The second crime, not reporting the shooting, does not seem to be a crime, but a failure to adhere to guidelines. The stated penalty for not reporting is a written reprimand up to 5 days suspension. Kanof made a big deal of reporting a gun fired, even during cleaning. But, the defense was able to cite [one or more] instances of a gun fired without a report. To me, a delineated penalty of 5 days suspension maximum, makes their penalty for same, cruel and unusual punishment. Remember, we have only OAD's testimony that he did not have a weapon, making his shooting only a possible crime, unless substantiated by some other source than OAD himself. [Who changed his version of what happen twice, if not three times.]

Having been around an area where weapons are fired, there is usually the smell of fired ammunition. I find it difficult that with so many there so soon, so few admitted to hearing the shooting and apparently no one admitted to smelling gun smoke. [Remember, 15 shots reportedly fired.]

I think that there should be a Congressional investigation into all the Agents at the site, perhaps to include a lie detector [probably not admissible, but a helpful tool]. If most/all the agents at the site knew there was a shooting, that takes the burden of reporting off Ramos and Compean and places it on the supervisors.

The problem as I see it: If an agent thinks he is justified in shooting, then he is not committing a crime. If he is involved in a shooting and does not feel justified, he has now committed a crime with a firearm and is looking at an automatic 10 years to what, 20? Who wants that kind of pressure going thru a Border Agent's mind in the split second he has to decide to shoot or not shoot.

Let's say Compean fired because his adrenalin was going and the larger OAD knocked him down and didn't obey his order to halt. Then here comes Ramos, having heard 14+/- shots fired. He sprints after OAD and takes a shot. He doesn't see a weapon but he has HEARD what sounded like an exchange of gunfire. This is a "dangerous area" that the Agents find themselves in, but Kanof will not let the defense offer that information into court.

The more transcript I read, the more sympathy I have for these poor Agents. They were up against the entire resources of the US Justice Dept. They were lucky to escape as lightly as they did. But, if we talk justice, it was sorely lacking in this case.

Wheew, what did Dat Mon say about being wordy?!

389 posted on 02/19/2007 2:35:04 PM PST by FOXFANVOX (God Bless the Military!)
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To: FOXFANVOX

Remember, "dangerous area" is a subjective term. They could have said how many agents were shot in the past year -- except I don't think any agents were shot in that area. It was likely the generality of saying 'dangerous area' that made it inadmissable.

"Not reporting the Shooting" is an administrative error. Committing an administrative error in order to hide a crime is obstruction. Just like speeding is not a criminal offense, but speeding to get away from the scene of the crime is a criminal offense.


390 posted on 02/19/2007 3:12:05 PM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: All
I finally decided to read from the beginning so I started with Debra Kanof's opening statement. In it she says: Border Patrol has one mission, or a primary mission. Their mission is to intercept immigrants, people who are illegally in the United States. And that's basically what they're supposed to do. Since 9-11 they have a second requirement for while they're patrolling, and that is antiterrorism. They're supposed to be protecting the border against terrorists. And, thirdly -- they do not have what's known as Title 21 authority, original Title 21 authority, that's drugs. But should they have a drug seizure, they call the Drug Enforcement Administration, and they take over from it. But they can seize the drugs if they find them.

Now, why would I think that Ms. Kanof would lie once again? It was just a hunch. ;-) (Of course, you only learn later that the emphasis in her phrase relied heavily on the word original.)

A little bit of sleuthing reveals that the Border Patrol does indeed have limited Title 21 authority which does allow them to pursue drug smugglers in drug interdiction activities. What they are not authorized to do is engage in investigations. In fact, the Border Patrol was called out in a 1998 report by the OIG for not pursuing suspects enough! While I couldn't find any more current, comprehensive documents on the subject, I did find multiple references to the arrangement between the CBP and the DEA indicating the MOU for Title 21 authority is still in place. This PDF File includes a cover letter and the Report as an attachment. Some relevant excerpts are from the report are below:
.


U. S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
OFFICE OF THE INSPECTOR GENERAL
INSPECTIONS DIVISION
Border Patrol Drug Interdiction Activities on the Southwest Border
Report Number I-98-20
September 1998

In our continuing effort to address illegal immigration and related issues, we conducted an assessment of the Immigration and Naturalization Service's (INS) Border Patrol drug interdiction activities on the Southwest border.

. . .

The Border Patrol has no general policy on the pursuit of drug smuggling suspects who abandon drugs and flee. Based on our sample of drug seizure cases in fiscal year 1996, when drug smuggling suspects were seen and pursued, 36 percent of the cases resulted in the suspects dropping the drugs and escaping apprehension. There are circumstances when it is reasonable and prudent for agents to cease pursuit, primarily when the pursuit would endanger their life. However, Border Patrol agents often ceased pursuit, in effect allowing the suspects to escape, in order to focus on seizing and securing the drugs dropped by these suspects. INS officials informed us this is primarily due to a lack of understanding of the importance of suspect apprehension in drug interdiction cases. While there was no guarantee that the suspects in these cases would have been apprehended had the pursuit been uninterrupted, the ceasing of pursuit, even temporarily, greatly increases, and in some cases ensures, the likelihood that there will not be an apprehension.

INS practices for removing deportable aliens arrested during drug seizures enable many suspected drug smugglers to avoid any legal sanctions for their illegal entry into the United States. The Border Patrol allowed deportable aliens in our case sample who were involved in drug smuggling to be granted a voluntary return or voluntary departure to Mexico, usually with no further processing for drug or immigration violations. We believe that any time there is a reason to believe that an alien is involved in drug smuggling, that alien should be deported and not granted a voluntary return or voluntary departure. Some of these aliens who were voluntarily returned were convicted, aggravated felons and should have clearly been deported. The lack of aggressive removal practices resulted in only 31 percent of the deportable aliens in our case sample actually being deported.

. . .

Our report contains ten recommendations that we believe will assist INS and the Border Patrol in improving drug interdiction activities along the Southwest border between the ports of entry. These recommendations deal with drug storage and transfer practices; pursuit and apprehension of illegal alien drug smugglers; removal of deportable aliens arrested during drug seizures; and collecting, developing, and maintaining intelligence information and fingerprint databases on drug smugglers and smuggling operations. We hope our comments, suggestions and recommendations in the attached report will be useful in your efforts to address these issues.

. . .

Because the Border Patrol's mission with respect to drug smuggling activities is limited to interdiction rather than investigation, its drug seizure cases are usually turned over to the DEA or another federal, state, or local agency for investigation and prosecution.5 The Border Patrol works most frequently with DEA, which has the primary federal jurisdiction to investigate drug smuggling. The Border Patrol can decide to pursue prosecution itself only if DEA declines; however, the Border Patrol has rarely, if ever, utilized this option.

Cooperation among the Border Patrol, DEA, and other law enforcement agencies along the Southwest border is imperative for drug interdiction and investigation efforts to succeed. On March 25, 1996, INS and DEA signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU). The MOU provides guidelines, limitations of authority, delineations of responsibility, and general procedures for the Border Patrol to follow in its drug interdiction activities. Included in this MOU are guidelines for granting all Border Patrol agents limited federal authority to conduct searches for and seize drugs at or along the border as long as probable cause is established.6

This Inspection Report focuses on four issues: 1) Border Patrol drug storage and transfer practices; 2) policies on whether to pursue drug smuggling suspects or secure abandoned drugs; 3) the disposition of aliens arrested in drug seizure cases; and 4) the use of drug interdiction intelligence.

footnote: 6 This limited search and seizure authority, provided under Title 21 of the United States Code, is in addition to a grant of authority under Title 19, United States Code, that provides Border Patrol agents the authority to conduct border searches without probable cause whenever agents observe any vehicle or person illegally entering the United States.

The Border Patrol Needs to Address Pursuing Drug Smuggling Suspects and Securing Abandoned Drugs

. . . Border Patrol agents ceased the pursuit to focus on the drugs because they apparently did not fully understand the importance of suspect apprehension in drug interdiction cases to enable prosecution and investigation.

. . . These numbers indicate an apparently unintentional shift in the Border Patrol's priorities from apprehension of illegal alien drug smugglers to securing dropped drugs.

. . . While individual situations may be complex, we believe that after weighing these risks and benefits, the emphasis should be on apprehending suspected drug smugglers over securing the dropped drugs

. . . If the Border Patrol stresses the importance of apprehending the suspected alien drug smugglers, it will increase the access to valuable drug intelligence as well as improve the opportunity to deter drug smuggling by criminal prosecution and subsequent deportation.

391 posted on 02/20/2007 4:29:18 AM PST by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: Cyropaedia; Sue Bob

Ping to above, FYI.


392 posted on 02/20/2007 5:03:12 AM PST by calcowgirl ("Liberalism is just Communism sold by the drink." P. J. O'Rourke)
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To: calcowgirl

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54341

Note: I am not a lawyer, but in my own subjective way of looking at this, the prosecution and imprisonment of Ramos and Compean does not seem like justice. The attorney for Ramos says the government's failure to provide a document written by Chrisopher Sanchez is grounds for a mistrial. It's not clear whether the prosecution or DHS withheld this document.


393 posted on 02/20/2007 6:32:03 AM PST by sumthinelse
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To: calcowgirl

(I am not sure if the last post I did worked -- I'll try to post it again here)

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54341

Note: I am not a lawyer, but in my own subjective way of looking at this, the prosecution and imprisonment of Ramos and Compean does not seem like justice. The attorney for Ramos says the government's failure to provide a document written by Chrisopher Sanchez is grounds for a mistrial. It's not clear whether the prosecution or DHS withheld this document.


394 posted on 02/20/2007 6:32:44 AM PST by sumthinelse
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To: calcowgirl
Now, why would I think that Ms. Kanof would lie once again? It was just a hunch. ;-)

Sorry, but your "relevation" means nothing.....because lying in an opening statement gets you nowhere.

Lets assume that her statement is indeed a lie. It is a statement about the law. Opposing counsel simply files a motion or adds the correct version of the law to the charge, which is decided before closing arguments. Then, in closing, you point out that the prosecutor "lied" (although you never say that in court..."misstated the law" would be the phrase), and tell the jury that the court will tell you that they did indeed have Title 21 authority.

In other words, the prosecutor's "lie" should have helped the defendants, not hurt them.

395 posted on 02/20/2007 6:50:53 AM PST by ContemptofCourt
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To: calcowgirl

*placemarker*


396 posted on 02/20/2007 7:14:05 AM PST by Liberty Valance (Keep a simple manner for a happy life ;o)
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To: CharlesWayneCT
Committing an administrative error in order to hide a crime is obstruction.

I strongly disagree. That the court essentially charged the jury that an administrative error is a crime is grounds for reversal on appeal.

BTW, what "administrative error" did Ramos commit?
397 posted on 02/20/2007 7:33:17 AM PST by Iwo Jima ("Close the border. Then we'll talk.")
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To: Iwo Jima

Supervisors testified that Ramos did not verbally report the shooting. Ramos testified that he did not verbally report the shooting.


398 posted on 02/20/2007 8:09:59 AM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Iwo Jima

There are actually things that are not crimes OR administrative errors, but that become obstruction if done in order to hide or abet criminal activity.

For example, driving your car over the speed limit is punishable by a fine. But if you drive over the speed limit to get away after you cause an accident, it is "fleeing the scene of an accident", and is a criminal act. You wouldn't get far in court arguing that since speeding, say 10 miles of the limit, is only punishable by a few points and a small fine, the court can't give you prison for the act of fleeing the scene of the crime.


399 posted on 02/20/2007 8:14:19 AM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
If fleeing the scene of a crime is a crime, then the fact that you are speeding is irrelevant.

Failure to report a shooting is not a crime. Period. And the case should not have been tried as though it were.

In fact, the administrative errors were so prejudicial that they should never have been allowed to come into the trial in any respect. Instead, the prosecution made that irrelevancy the centerpiece of its case, leading to the prejudice with the jury which occurred, just as it was designed to do.
400 posted on 02/20/2007 8:39:15 AM PST by Iwo Jima ("Close the border. Then we'll talk.")
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