Posted on 11/21/2006 5:23:06 AM PST by SJackson
Note: That treaty was submitted to the Senate on April 22, 1844, with the presidential message of the same date (Executive Journal, VI, 257-61); and it was rejected by the Senate by a vote of sixteen ayes to thirty-five noes on the following June 8 (ibid., 311-12). Certain papers accompanied the presidential message of April 22, 1844, and also the sixteen later messages to the Senate of various dates from April 26 to June 10 (ibid., passe); from most of these the injunction of secrecy was removed during the Senate proceedings; nine of the messages of April and May, with the accompanying papers, were printed at the time in Senate Documents Nos. 341, 345, and 349, 28th Congress, 1st session, serial 435; of the first and last mentioned of those three documents (perhaps of the second also) twenty thousand copies were printed; but the message to the Senate of May 16, 1844 (Executive Journal, VI, 286-87), and the accompanying papers, the Senate refused to print (ibid., 287); with the other papers sent to the Senate they were made public with the presidential message to Congress of June 10 (Richardson, IV, 323-27; House Document No. 271, 28th Congress, 1st session, serial 444).
when President Davis did NOTHING to harm the fort, nor the persons therein, lincoln chose to resupply AND reinforce the garrison.
had lincoln NOT ordered the ship to resupply the fort, it would NOT have been shelled. UNLIKE lincoln, President Davis was an HONEST/HONORABLE man AND Davis wanted PEACE with the USA.
free dixie,sw
a. SILLY,
B. NOT worthy of you &
c. sounds like the DUMB-bunny nonsense that "JSU&TI" "blesses us with".
i expect MORE of you.
free dixie,sw
laughing AT you, DUMMY!
free dixie,sw
it's been THROUGHLY argued here.
N-S just wants to argue. it is his NATURE.
free dixie,sw
that's WHY you have to be so VERY careful about what language is in them.
free dixie,sw
don't you CARE that you are thought a FOOL & a NITWIT???
free dixie,sw
I don't suppose that you can surprise us all and produce this letter, can you? The letter to Pickens announcing his intention to resupply the fort is readily available. Where is this alleged communication to be found? It's not in Lincoln's Collected Writings. It's not in the OR.
Hogwash. No such letter exists.
when President Davis did NOTHING to harm the fort, nor the persons therein, lincoln chose to resupply AND reinforce the garrison.
Except try to starve them into surrender and bombard them for over 24 hours.
had lincoln NOT ordered the ship to resupply the fort, it would NOT have been shelled. UNLIKE lincoln, President Davis was an HONEST/HONORABLE man AND Davis wanted PEACE with the USA.
Complete and utter nonsense.
And I've learned to expect nothing from you.
Actually they're coequal...
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
But they're subject to judicial review, as per NS's Constitutional citation.
And where did you get that story --- from your imaginary friend, uncle ed?
You are so full of it....
Read the post regarding what the Republic of Texas required.
The United States and The Republic of Texas were negotiating as equals.
NS:
You need to read this in full. It tells the story about who the major blame should fall on, and it isn't the Confederacy! (Excerpt from President Davis's Address to Congress)
On the arrival of our commissioners in Washington on the 5th of March they postponed, at the suggestion of a friendly intermediary, doing more than giving informal notice of their arrival. This was done with a view to afford time to the President, who had just been inaugurated, for the discharge of other pressing official duties in the organization of his Administration before engaging his attention in the object of their mission. It was not until the 12th of the month that they officially addressed the Secretary of State, informing him of the purpose of their arrival, and stating, in the language of their instructions, their wish "to make to the Government of the United States overtures for the opening of negotiations, assuring the Government of the United States that the President, Congress, and people of the Confederate States earnestly desire a peaceful solution of these great questions; that it is neither their interest nor their wish to make any demand which is not founded on strictest justice, nor do any act to injure their late confederates."
To this communication no formal reply was received until the 8th of April. During the interval the commissioners had consented to waive all questions of form. With the firm resolve to avoid war if possible, they went so far even as to hold during that long period unofficial intercourse through an intermediary, whose high position and character inspired the hope of success, and through whom constant assurances were received from the Government of the United States of peaceful intentions; of the determination to evacuate Fort Sumter; and further, that no measure changing the existing status prejudicially to the Confederate States, especially at Fort Pickens, was in contemplation, but that in the event of any change of intention on the subject, notice would be given to the commissioners. The crooked paths of diplomacy can scarcely furnish an example so wanting in courtesy, in candor, and directness as was the course of the United States Government toward our commissioners in Washington. For proof of this I refer to the annexed documents marked ,(1) taken in connection with further facts, which I now proceed to relate.
Early in April the attention of the whole country, as well as that of our commissioners, was attracted to extraordinary preparations for an extensive military and naval expedition in New York and other Northern ports. These preparations commenced in secrecy, for an expedition whose destination was concealed, only became known when nearly completed, and on the 5th, 6th, and 7th of April transports and vessels of war with troops, munitions, and military supplies sailed from-Northern ports bound southward. Alarmed by so extraordinary a demonstration, the commissioners requested the delivery of an answer to their official communication of the 12th of March; and thereupon received on the 8th of April a reply, dated on the 15th of the previous month, from which it appears that during the whole interval, whilst the commissioners were receiving assurances calculated to inspire hope of the success of their mission, the Secretary of State and the President of the United States had already determined to hold no intercourse with them whatever; to refuse even to listen to any proposals they had to make, and had profited by the delay created by their own assurances in order to prepare secretly the means for effective hostile operations. That these assurances were given has been virtually confessed by the Government of the United States by its sending a messenger to Charleston to give notice of its purpose to use force if opposed in its intention of supplying Fort Sumter. No more striking proof of the absence of good faith in the conduct of the Government of the United States toward this Confederacy can be required than is contained in the circumstances which accompanied this notice. According to the usual course of navigation the vessels composing the expedition designed for the relief of Fort Sumter might be expected to reach Charleston Harbor on the 8th of April. Yet, with our commissioners actually in Washington, detained under assurances that notice should be given of any military movement, the notice was not addressed to them, but a messenger was sent to Charleston to give the notice to the Governor of South Carolina, and the notice was so given at a late hour on the 8th of April, the eve of the very day on which the fleet might be expected to arrive.
That this maneuver failed in its purpose was not the fault of those who contrived it. A heavy tempest delayed the arrival of the expedition and gave time to the commander of our forces at Charleston to ask and receive the instructions of this Government. Even then, under all the provocation incident to the contemptuous refusal to listen to our commissioners, and the tortuous course of the Government of the United States, I was sincerely anxious to avoid the effusion of blood, and directed a proposal to be made to the commander of Fort Sumter, who had avowed himself to be nearly out of provisions, that we would abstain from directing our fire on Fort Sumter if he would promise not to open fire on our forces unless first attacked. This proposal was refused and the conclusion was reached that the design of the United States was to place the besieging force at Charleston between the simultaneous fire of the fleet and the fort. There remained, therefore, no alternative but to direct that the fort should at once be reduced. This order was executed by General Beauregard with the skill and success which were naturally to be expected from the well-known character of that gallant officer; and , although the bombardment lasted but thirty-three hours our flag did not wave over its battered walls until after the appearance of the hostile fleet off Charleston. Fortunately, not a life was lost on our side, and we were gratified in being spared the necessity of a useless effusion of blood, by the prudent caution of the officers who commanded the fleet in abstaining from the evidently futile effort to enter the harbor for the relief of Major Anderson. I refer to the report of the Secretary of War, and the papers which accompany it, for further details of this brilliant affair. In this connection I cannot refrain from a well-deserved tribute to the noble State, the eminent soldierly qualities of whose people were so conspicuously displayed in the port of Charleston. For months they had been irritated by the spectacle of a fortress held within their principal harbor as a standing menace against their peace and independence. Built in part with their own money, its custody confided with their own consent to an agent who held no power over them other than such as they had themselves delegated for their own benefit, intended to be used by that agent for their own protection against foreign attack, they saw it held with persistent tenacity as a means of offense against them by the very Government which they had established for their protection. They had beleaguered it for months, felt entire confidence in their power to capture it, yet yielded to the requirements of discipline, curbed their impatience, submitted without complaint to the unaccustomed hardships, labors, and privations of a protracted siege; and when at length their patience was rewarded by the signal for attack, and success had crowned their steady and gallant conduct, even in the very moment of triumph they evinced a chivalrous regard for the feelings of the brave but unfortunate officer who had been compelled to lower his flag. All manifestations of exultation were checked in his presence. Their commanding general, with their cordial approval and the consent of his Government, refrained from imposing any terms that could wound the sensibilities of the commander of the fort. He was permitted to retire with the honors of war, to salute his flag, to depart freely with all his command, and was escorted to the vessel in which he embarked with the highest marks of respect from those against whom his guns had been so recently directed.
Not only does every event connected with the siege reflect the highest honor on South Carolina, but the forbearance of her people and of this Government from making any harsh use of a victory obtained under circumstances of such peculiar provocation attest to the fullest extent the absence of any purpose beyond securing their own tranquillity and the sincere desire to avoid the calamities of war. Scarcely had the President of the United States received intelligence of the failure of the scheme which he had devised for the reinforcement of Fort Sumter, when he issued the declaration of war against this Confederacy which has prompted me to convoke you. In this extraordinary production that high functionary affects total ignorance of the existence of an independent Government, which, possessing the entire and enthusiastic devotion of its people, is exercising its functions without question over seven sovereign States, over more than 5,000,000 of people, and over a territory whose area exceeds half a million of square miles. He terms sovereign States "combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings or by the powers vested in the marshals by law." He calls for an army of 75,000 men to act as a posse comitatus in aid of the process of the courts of justice in States where no courts exist whose mandates and decrees are not cheerfully obeyed and respected by a willing people. He avows that "the first service to be assigned to the forces called out" will be not to execute the process of courts, but to capture forts and strongholds situated within the admitted limits of this Confederacy and garrisoned by its troops; and declares that "this effort" is intended to maintain the perpetuity of popular government." He concludes by commanding "the persons composing the combinations aforesaid "-to wit, the 5,000,000 of inhabitants of these States- "to retire peaceably to their respective abodes within twenty days." Apparently contradictory as are the terms of this singular document, one point is unmistakably evident. The President of the United States called for an army of 75,000 men, whose first service was to be to capture our forts. It was a plain declaration of war which I was not at liberty to disregard because of my knowledge that under the Constitution of the United States the President was usurping a power granted exclusively to the Congress. He is the sole organ of communication between that country and foreign powers. The law of nations did not permit me to question the authority of the Executive of a foreign nation to declare war against this Confederacy. Although I might have refrained from taking active measures for our defense, if the States of the Union had all imitated the action of Virginia, North Carolina, Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Missouri, by denouncing the call for troops as an unconstitutional usurpation of power to which they refused to respond, I was not at liberty to disregard the fact that many of the States seemed quite content to submit to the exercise of the power assumed by the President of the United States, and were actively engaged in levying troops to be used for the purpose indicated in the proclamation. Deprived of the aid of Congress at the moment, I was under the necessity of confining my action to a call on the States for volunteers for the common defense, in accordance with the authority you had confided to me before your adjournment. I deemed it proper, further, to issue proclamation inviting application from persons disposed to aid our defense in private armed vessels on the high seas, to the end that preparations might be made for the immediate issue of letters of marque and reprisal which you alone, under the Constitution, have power to grant. I entertain no doubt you will concur with me in the opinion that in the absence of a fleet of public vessels it will be eminently expedient to supply their place by private armed vessels, so happily styled by the publicists of the United States "the militia of the sea," and so often and justly relied on by them as an efficient and admirable instrument of defensive warfare. I earnestly recommend the immediate passage of a law authorizing me to accept the numerous proposals already received.
Benjamin Franklin is speaking about the legality of rebellion and he says to Mr. Dickinson who does not know if the colonies have the "right" to rebel against England.
Oh, Mr. Dickinson, I'm surprised at you. You should know that rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person as in "their rebellion" that it is illegal."
Now, I have watched thread after thread be filled with the same arguments, the same name calling, the same accusations...but say what you want... Mr. Franklin is right.
Our commissioners? Well we know who's slant this gives, don't we?
So what were the Commssioners supposed to accomplish? They were there, in the words of Jefferson Davis's letter to Lincoln, for "the purpose of establishing friendly relations between the Confederate States and the United States..." Period. They were not there to negotiate an end to the crisis but to obtain recognition from the Lincoln Administration of the legitimacy of the Southern acts of secession. Then, and only then, were they autorized to "agree, treat, consult, and negotiate of and concerning all matters and subjects interesting to both nations..." So Lincoln's choice was to agree to this demand and give in completely, or not meet with them at all. Not surprisingly he refused to meet with them until such time as actual negotiations might have been possible.
Perhaps. If the Founding Fathers had lost their rebellion we might be learning about the traitorous rebels of 1776 in our history books. And had the South won their rebellion then all the Southern kiddies would be reading about their revolutionary heroes.
But the major difference in all these discussions is that the Founding Father's labored under no misconceptions. They knew their actions were illegal, they knew they would have to fight for their independence, and they didn't complain about King George fighting back. All y'all, on the other hand, insist on trying to coat the southern actions with a veil of legality it doesn't deserve and paint the Union as the aggressor. Well, that's just wrong. Our rebellion, their rebellion, it was still a rebellion. And the Lincoln Administration was right in opposing it. And in the end the Founding Father's won their rebellion and the rebel government lost their's.
As sovereign nations they should have. But once Texas agreed to disband and join the U.S. and become a state then they were no longer equals. They were the Federal government and just another state.
I wish you the best of success in all that you endeavor to do.
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