Posted on 11/21/2006 5:23:06 AM PST by SJackson
Lincoln promised that he would not reprovision the fort but, in typical Lincoln fashion, lied.
When did he make this promise? In the first inaugural, he said, ""There need be no blood-shed or violence, and there shall be none unless it be forced upon the national authority. The power confided to me will be used to hold, occupy, and possess the property and places belonging to the government, and to collect the duties and imposts; but beyond what may be necessary for these objects, there will be no invasion, no using of force against or among the people anywhere."
It was the south that resorted to violence, "having fired on bread."
It's many times the case that a deeper, scholarly reading of history overrides eventual assumptions commonly held by many. You just have to be up on this stuff.
This from the guy who apparently doesn't know the difference between a tariff and an excise tax. Read some of the Declarations of Causes. Read Alexander Stephens' Georgia speech and his "cornerstone" speech.
I thought your position was that secession was a right for any reason a State decided?
Well Bubba, at least you're moving forward on learning what really happened vs what you read in high school. In the scope of one post you go from "I always read that the South started the war...fired the first shots yada yada" to verifying my statement that Lincoln provoked that Fort Sumter incident even when everyone around him thought it was foolish.
Your second quote, the one from Lincoln, is a famous one among the Walter Williams/Thomas DiLorenzo/myself crowd of people tying to set the record straight on this issue, because it's Lincoln referencing collecting the Morril Tariff, which superceded the famous Tariff of Abonimations as the most unfair, one-sided tax in the land. It was crucial to Lincoln's American System ideas (which he inherited from Henry Clay) that these "duties" be collected from the South. Incidentially, Fort Sumter also served as a tariff collection point.
That quote says it all: pay or be destroyed.
Nobody who knew that Nebraska didn't even become a state until 1867 would argue that.
Lincoln went on to say, "The mails, unless repelled, will continue to be furnished in all parts of the Union." Maybe he really meant: allow the mail to be delivered or be destroyed?
Yes, as a LAST or EXTREME resort, not because some ethnic group wants to join Mexico.....
I feel like you are trying to bait me here. I have made my position clear.....
I'm not trying to bate you. I'm trying to understand from your point of view just what it is that justifies secession. What events occurred in 1860 that made secession the last resort? What made 1860 different than 1859?
I suppose "some" would be those voices in your head, but the Confederate flag makers sure considered them to be "Southern States" (with the exception of Nebraska which was not a state at all until long after the waR was over.)
Variation of the number of stars on Confederate Flags.The reason for the variations in number of stars in the Stars and Bars was due to lack of centralized purchasing. The original ones had 7 stars and more were added as additional states joined and the flag makers became aware of the number of states.
In Oct. 1861, a rump legislative body in Missouri dissolved the bond to the union and joined the confederacy. Kentucky was recognized as neutral at first but later was represented in the Confederate congress, bringing the stars to 13. However many flagmakers only recognized those states that were able to maintain state governments within their own territory, so that 41% of the over 300 surviving STARS AND BARS have only 11 stars. Missouri and Kentucky were overrun by the union and maintained representation in the federal government.
One interesting variation is the 12 star version, used by Nathan Bedford Forest, who swore not to include the star for Georgia, "as long as a yankee remains on Georgia's soil."
Of the survivors those having eight stars, 9%; nine stars, 5%; ten stars, 4%; twelve stars, 9%; fourteen stars, 0.6%; and 15 stars, 5%. The fourteenth star was for Maryland, whose governor was under house arrest and whose legislature was disbanded until the jailed members were replaced in a election where all voters had to take an oath of allegiance to the federal government. The 15th star was for Delaware, the other slave state. Unlike Maryland, who raised a number of regiments in exile from citizens who escaped across the river into Virginia and actually had more troops in the field for the confederacy then Florida, Delaware, the first state in the union, remained loyal to the federals.
The most interesting (at least to me) version of the Stars and Bars is the 18 star version used by Gen. Stand Watie, the last confederate general to surrender his command, the Cherokee Brigade. It had 13 white stars in a circle and 5 red ones for the "five civilized nations", the five indian tribes that joined the confederacy.
OK....
1. Southerners were justifiably concerned that the Northern Abolitionist were not going to stop until they abolished slavery. No matter what Lincoln said in his inaugural address, it was obvious that he would not allow slavery to spread. To many Southerners slave owners this was the beginning of the end. 2. The Fugitive Slave Act was NOT being enforced in many Northern States, and the Federal Government refused to step in to solve the problem.
Now, regardless of our viewpoint today concerning slavery, the fact remains that slavery was a profitable part of the Southern economy. A male slave sold on the average for around $5000.00, which means that a plantation owner with even 50 slaves stood to lose a considerable investment.
From the Southern point of view at the time, the Federal Government and the Lincoln Administration were a threat to their economic well-being, and they saw no viable reason to remain in a Union that was hostile to them in every way.
Therefore, secession, by the thinking of the day, was justified.
As to the overall point of secession being a "Last Resort", there was not a pressing emergency or immediate threat to the profits of slavery and the general complaints listed were no different in 1860-61 than they had been in 1858-59.
An interesting point to ponder is why the seven Cotton States were in such a hurry to push through secession that they didn't even want to wait for some overt act by Lincoln. The man hadn't even taken office yet.
The standard classification was North, South and Border. Only in the Border states and the South was slavery legal.
And, No, citing the existence of the Fugitive Slave Act as the Law of the Land blurs nothing except distortions you attempt. Most Northerners HATED that law and observed it only under compulsion. It was passed through Southern votes with a few Northern Democrats. It is a LIE to claim the North passed it. And you know it.
But I expect nothing but LIES, and distortions from your side. That is all you have. Well and false pretenses.
There was no compromise with those working night and day with the singleminded purpose of splitting the Union. They had NO intention of compromising what they had been working for for ten years. Lincoln could no more compromise with them than Bush could with al Queda.
Tariffs had nothing to do with the attacks on the Union and the Rebels didn't even claim they did. Only their modernday mendacious defenders make such silly claims even though it is easy to show that they attacked the Union ONLY because of their slaves. They were totally Single Issue and happily admitted it.
"...reduction in unfair tariffs on the Southern states' trade internally..." This is a new fantasy. There were NO "internal" tariffs within the US. Who knows what this is supposed to mean?
"...the notion that this poster has about some benevolent "North" (read: your average citizen) being anti-slavery is nuts." All that is well and good but has no bearing on anything I have ever said. Preserving the Union was Lincoln's goal as it was those who fought for the United States of America. You are the one who keeps deceptively bringing slavery up as their motive. That may have been true for a minority of Unionists but those of us supporting Lincoln make no such claims for most.
It is also a LIE to claim a 94% AWOL (whatever that means) rate for Union forces.
"Scores of blacks were beaten to death by black mobs in our most cosmopolitan northern city!" Black mobs? Now it is true that scores (maybe even hundreds) of blacks were beaten to death and hung by DEMOCRAT mobs sympathetic to the South who also attacked Republicans in 1863 in NYC. These DEMOCRAT mobs also attacked black orphanages established and run by REPUBLICANS. That city was ALWAYS against the war and pro-South throughout the war. Like today it is a wart on the face of America and a political disgrace for siding with the enemies of this nation.
1. why you bothered to post it & did you think anyone here (with the exception of "JSU&TI"- he will believe ANYTHING, that agrees with his BIGOTRY) would believe you &
2. why i bothered to read it and/or respond to that BILGE.
nonetheless, did you UNDERSTAND my original post or do you have a reading comprehension problem??? as i said previously, Brownmiller's SOURCES have NEVER been either "questioned as to ACCURACY" or "debunked". (her CONCLUSIONS are something else entirely.)
sorry, we aren't going to let you get away with trying to change the SUBJECT to something other than the FACTS that her source documents PROVE to the satisfaction of everyone except the HATE-filled, arrogantly (and KNOWINGLY) ignorant.
and your comments in an earlier post about "teacher's guides" will make you NO friends among FR's many teachers, as the post assumes that teachers are as DUMB, UNdiscerning & IGNORANT as you evidently hope they might be.
UNlike posters on this forum, teachers have at least a college degree & at least SOME understanding of FACTS, sources & other "trappings" of a university education.
POSTERS on the "worldwidewierd", otoh, simply need a CPU, a monitor/screen, an Internet connection of some sort & a keyboard. a functioning BRAIN is not required. neither is an EDUCATION, beyond that necessary to type & "smart off" about subjects of which they may know ZILCH (the arrogant ignorance of your "buddy", "JSU&TI" comes immediately to mind.)!
free dixie,sw
I have never claimed slavery was not protected by law even though a total contradiction of the ideals of our nation's founding. Lincoln would not have ended slavery and could not have since it would require a constitutional amendment which could never have passed. Some Nothern states would not have even supported such an amendment.
There were no new threats to slavery except the realization that it would be limited to the areas in which it currently existed. But there could be no "right" to possess slaves only the power to do so.
otoh, it must be presumed (absent evidence to the contrary) that the work credited to (and particularly the direct quotes) Brownmiller is HERS alone!
care for a "do over", as you've LOST this argument???
free dixie,sw
Toms River, NJ (the last time i looked at a map, NJ wasn't in dixie.) had a WHOLE regiment that fought bravely for dixie FREEDOM. KY had at least one large unit that fought for the union.
otoh, we southerners call your "union-loyal" troops TRAITORS & TURNCOATS. (i suspect that the DAMNyankees & unionists had a similar label for northern lads, who chose the southern LIBERTY cause as their own.)
free dixie,sw
Since you refused to answer his question, we can only assume you DID rape women in Vietnam as Brownmiller claimed American forces did routinely.
Of course, since she claimed ALL military forces did such things then CSA forces did too. Is Brownmiller correct about THAT? Or should all her claims be dismissed?
NE was NOT on another planet.
sorry, but as usual, you are DESPERATELY trying to make something out of NOTHING. and once more, you FAIL to convince anyone.
free dixie,sw
GEN Albert Pike designed the flag you are speaking of. (fwiw, we Tsaligiyi had our own WAR banner, too, which was flown with & sometimes instead of the "Cherokee Battle Flag".)
the Tsaligiyi battle flag was red with seven stars in the shape of "the Big Dipper" centered on the flag, with the constellation "tipped" so that the "water" would pour out. it was flown at least as early as February 1862. (the first KNOWN one, which is in the tribal museum, is made from the "underskirt" of a blood-RED wedding dress - fyi, Tsaligiyi brides did NOT traditionally wear WHITE wedding dresses, as WHITE is the traditional color of DEATH among our people! RED, being the color of LIFE, was ONE of the usual colors for wedding attire for both women & men.)
free dixie,sw
Brownmiller did NOT say that ALL "military forces" committed WAR CRIMES in the south.
OBVIOUSLY she is talking about the TENS of THOUSANDS of WAR CRIMES committed by the "criminals in blue". (even "JSU&TI", the lunatic, fool & BIGOT isn't DUMB enough to believe that when Brownmiller speaks of "the Union army" that she means ANYBODY but the union forces!!! otoh, he HOPES that his readers ARE stupid enough to NOT understand her clear text!)
free dixie,sw
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