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Old Times Here Are Apparently Forgotten
Cornell American ^ | May 31st, 2006 | Vanessa Durante

Posted on 06/01/2006 9:07:55 AM PDT by stainlessbanner

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To: TheKidster
actually, by 1860, slavery was DYING. this is WELL documented in many original source documents.

due to improvements in agricultural mechanization the PROFIT was disappearing from slavery. remove the profit from slavery & the slavers would have freed their slaves; the slavers care about NOTHING but the $$$$$$$$!

absent the war, slavery MIGHT have survived another 10-15 years. my GUESS, based on my research, is five-ten years until slavery was UNprofitable and soon thereafter, DEAD.

even if the 10-15 year estimate, absent the IMPERIALIST war promulgated by lincoln's "merry band of thugs/crooks/cheap politicians", is correct (and my guess is wrong), KILLING a MILLION people (many of the victims of the invading yankee army WERE slaves! btw, a MAJORITY of the UNarmed CIVILANS who died in dixie during the war were: AmerIndians,Asians,Blacks,Jews,Latinos, Roman Catholics, other religious minorities & the "poorest of the poor" whites. VERY few of the slave-owning elites lost their lives, as they were PROTECTED from harm by the military!) seems a REALLY high price to pay for ending the evil of slavery 10 years earlier than 1865.

as i've said before, your eyes/MIND are CLOSED to the truth, as you've been LIED TO repeatedly & made a FOOL of in school & by the main-SLIME, elitist, media spin machine out of DAMNyankeeland.

free dixie,sw

281 posted on 06/08/2006 7:58:37 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: TheKidster
actually, by 1860, slavery was DYING. this is WELL documented in many original source documents.

due to improvements in agricultural mechanization the PROFIT was disappearing from slavery. absent the war, slavery MIGHT have survived another 10-15 years. my GUESS, based on my research, is five-ten years until slavery was UNprofitable.

even if the 10-15 year estimate, absent the IMPERIALIST war promulgated by lincoln's merry band of thugs/crooks/politicians, is correct (and my guess is wrong), KILLING a MILLION people (many of whom WERE slaves) seems a REALLY high price to pay for ending the evil of slavery 10 years earlier than 1865. as i've said before, your eyes/MIND are CLOSED to the truth, as you've been LIED TO repeatedly in school & on the main-SLIME, elitist, media spin machine.

free dixie,sw

282 posted on 06/08/2006 7:59:00 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: ModerateGOOPer
what an UTTERLY dumb, false & arrogantly IGNORANT post!

you win the "pink lolly-pop award" for today's SILLIEST post.

laughing out loud AT you.

free dixie,sw

283 posted on 06/08/2006 8:03:53 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: cowboyway
Not if the entire economy is based on a single form of motive force.

But again and again Lincoln says that he has no intention of interfering with slavery where it exists. Are you claiming that the continued economic vitality of the south depended on the expansion of slavery into the west? Usually you guys are claiming that slavery was on the way out anyway.

The funny thing aboout your argument is that it turned out that slavery was not essential to the southern economy. Cotton production had returned to pre-war levels by, I believe, 1870. Of course the prices of cotton had dropped by that time, as Indian and Egyptian cottton came on line.

284 posted on 06/08/2006 9:09:58 AM PDT by Heyworth
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To: stand watie; TheKidster
actually, by 1860, slavery was DYING. this is WELL documented in many original source documents.

Of which you cannot provide a single one.

due to improvements in agricultural mechanization the PROFIT was disappearing from slavery.

And therefore would have been gone by 1940 when the first commercially successful cotton harverster was introduced? remove the profit from slavery & the slavers would have freed their slaves; the slavers care about NOTHING but the $$$$$$$$!

So why would they have freed their slaves if they cared about nothing but $$$$$$$$$? Wouldn't they have sold them for what they could get? And what about the cooks and maids and butlers and gardeners and grooms and porters and what-have-you that were slaves? Why would they be freed?

285 posted on 06/08/2006 9:18:45 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: 4CJ

Again he is speaking of the courts and not the federal government. Congress has the duty to ensure that the state government is legal.


286 posted on 06/08/2006 9:21:44 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Heyworth
Are you claiming that the continued economic vitality of the south depended on the expansion of slavery into the west?

There is an important dynamic that you are omitting: the regional bitterness that existed between north and the South. Southerners then, just as now, didn't want the country to be governed by the yankees.

Usually you guys are claiming that slavery was on the way out anyway.

It was. Just as using horses was replaced by tractors.

The funny thing aboout your argument is that it turned out that slavery was not essential to the southern economy.

Of course it wasn't. Just like union workers aren't 'essential' to manufacturing. But I dare say that the union worker would argue that point.

287 posted on 06/08/2006 9:27:45 AM PDT by cowboyway (My heroes have always been cowboys.)
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To: Non-Sequitur
i'm NOT going to repeat our exact argument on this subject again on this thread.

in point of fact, you as the Minister of DAMNyankee Propaganda, just cannot stand the thought of me telling the TRUTH about the "coming death of slavery, absent the war", as it makes the DAMNyankees war against the new southern republic look like what it WAS:

an UNjust,IMPERIALIST war, that was fought ONLY because lincoln, the TYRANT, was UNwilling to let the south go in peace. as a result of his lust for POWER & $$$$$$$ (for himself and his northern cronies of the financial/industrial elites), a MILLION people NEEDLESSLY died.

from the DY perspective, there was NO REASON for the war except GREED & a LUST for more political/financial POWER. THAT is the TRUTH about the war, that you won't/can't face.

free dixie,sw

288 posted on 06/08/2006 9:31:08 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: cowboyway
Southerners then, just as now, didn't want the country to be governed by the yankees.

In other words, they were only loyal to the United States as long as they were in charge. As soon as an election didn't go their way, they wanted to take their ball and go home. You make southerners sound like a bunch of spoiled brats. Why did they agree to the Constitution in the first place? Didn't they read the part about elections? Did they have their fingers crossed when they ratified, just in case an election ever went against them?

289 posted on 06/08/2006 9:41:22 AM PDT by Heyworth
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To: stand watie

I dare you to go to the black part of town with a confederate flag and start telling everyone that the number of people who died in the civil war was too high a price to pay for the accelerated end to slavery. I'm sure they will be very receptive, after all it would have happened eventually, whats a few more years in chains and bondage?
You say you don't gloss over it and you say that you don't speak glibbly on the matter but you do, in every post


290 posted on 06/08/2006 9:46:26 AM PDT by TheKidster
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To: Heyworth
As soon as an election didn't go their way, they wanted to take their ball and go home. You make southerners sound like a bunch of spoiled brats

There is no way to avoid oversimplification of a subject this complex in cyber text bites. There have been thousands of pages written about the events leading up to the war. Either you know this or you don't.

If you do know this, you're simply being antagonistic. If you don't know this, then it is an utter waste of time debating you.

Of course, knowing you, it's a bit of both.

Why did they agree to the Constitution in the first place?

Agree to it? Hell, we wrote it!

Bottom line - War Between the States (you like simple, here it is):

South fought for state(s) rights.

North fought for preserving the union.

291 posted on 06/08/2006 10:29:54 AM PDT by cowboyway (My heroes have always been cowboys.)
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To: cowboyway
There is no way to avoid oversimplification of a subject this complex in cyber text bites. There have been thousands of pages written about the events leading up to the war.

Indeed, but for me it seems to come down to justification for secession. Had there been actual oppression of the south by the north, I'd be a lot more sympathetic to them. But I have yet to see anything done by the Lincoln administration or by the north in general that justified unilateral secession and the shelling of US forces. You say it was a states rights issue, but you can't point to anything that had violated their rights. Had Lincoln moved to end slavery when the south bombarded Sumter? Had he raised the tariff? No. In the Alexander Stephens Georgia speech, he nicely outlines why Lincoln won't be able to do much of anything in the face of southern opposition in the House and Senate.

The southern position seems to boil down to "it was sufficient cause to us," precluding any value judgement about those causes.

292 posted on 06/08/2006 10:58:22 AM PDT by Heyworth
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To: Heyworth
Same with the south. If you want to say that you rebelled, no argument. If you want to say that you did not, in fact, rebel, that you exercised rights guaranteed under the Constitution, I would argue otherwise.

What the south did was not a rebellion, it was secession. A legal withdrawal from voluntary union by legally constituted authority. What the north did in response was invasion and conquest.

293 posted on 06/08/2006 11:55:58 AM PDT by Da Bilge Troll (Defeatism is not a winning strategy!)
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To: Non-Sequitur
There was absolutely nothing conservative about the confederate cause.

Home rule and sovereignty are conservative principles regardless of political party.

294 posted on 06/08/2006 12:02:08 PM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Non-Sequitur
I suppose one is free to ignore the Church of England in London or Judaism in Tel Aviv but that doesn't ignore the fact that they are government supported at the expense of other faiths.

The key phrase: "at the expense of other faiths". There is nothing in the Constitution that would prohibit a display of the Koran. As long as you were still free to ignore it, you would still be free.

295 posted on 06/08/2006 12:02:49 PM PDT by Da Bilge Troll (Defeatism is not a winning strategy!)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Here is the decision from Texas v White The Chief Justice references the Preamble and, indirectly, Article IV.

Interesting. However the finding has more to do with the process that was used rather than the principle of secession itself.

296 posted on 06/08/2006 12:05:40 PM PDT by Da Bilge Troll (Defeatism is not a winning strategy!)
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To: stand watie
i'm NOT going to repeat our exact argument on this subject again on this thread.

Can't remember what you made up at the time?

just cannot stand the thought of me telling the TRUTH about the "coming death of slavery, absent the war"

I'm not sure my system could stand the shock of you telling the truth on anything.

297 posted on 06/08/2006 12:16:51 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Da Bilge Troll; Heyworth
A legal withdrawal from voluntary union by legally constituted authority.

Except that it wasn't a legal withdrawl.

298 posted on 06/08/2006 12:24:34 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: stainlessbanner
Home rule and sovereignty are conservative principles regardless of political party.

Trashing the constitution, nationalizing businesses, seizing private property without compensation, excessive taxes, and martial law are not. Regardless of political party.

299 posted on 06/08/2006 12:26:22 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: Da Bilge Troll
There is nothing in the Constitution that would prohibit a display of the Koran. As long as you were still free to ignore it, you would still be free.

Is government displaying the Koran?

300 posted on 06/08/2006 12:26:59 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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