Posted on 11/06/2005 2:37:29 PM PST by ncountylee
I think that the problem is two-pronged--part nature, part nurture. As a way to look at temperament broadly, do a google search on the temperament of the German Shepherd Dog. You will find that certain "lines" (DDR, Czech working, West German, American show, etc.) are considered to be either softer or more working type/tougher depending on their country of origin.
In my own breed, a herding/guard dog, some individual US breeders breed a tougher, working type dog and others prefer to breed a softer, family version. American-bred dogs of my breed tend to be softer than their Euro counterparts. As I have no sheep to herd on my 1/2 acre plot in suburbia, have lots of kids and dogs nearby, and little need for a "guard" dog (although I like a watch dog), I prefer a softer, dog.
I think that the *overall* temperament of the "pit bull" has deteriorated over the last couple of decades as it has become the dog of choice for drug dealers and others who desire an aggressive dog. That is not to say that the pit bull is an "inherently" aggressive breed. If one looks at the "pit bull" of the past, it was considered a much-beloved family pet.
However, if someone wants to breed an aggressive dog, all he has to do is take the most aggressive, hair-trigger dog from a litter *of any breed*, breed it, and then take the most vicious dog from that litter and breed it and so on and so on until, several generations out, the "breeder" is going to have a bunch of unstable, vicious nuts.
I have seen well-bred and well-trained pit bull-type dogs that were a credit to their breed. I once saw an Am Staff run a standard excellent agility course and it was inspiring--the dog was a marvel of supple power and drive. When he was done, his "mom" whipped out a chew toy and dog settled down nicely. Meanwhile, about 50 feet away, a border collie was going after another dog as the two dogs were taking turns on the practice jump.
I have seen plenty of Am Staffs and other large terriers hanging out around conformation rings with nary a snark. In the right hands, a well-bred "pit bull" can be a great family or perfomance dog.
In my own neighborhood, when I walk my dog *on a lead,* we have been chased by a supervised cocker, an unsupervised doxie (who was hell-bent on biting my ankle), and a black lab mix whose kids can't seem to keep him behind the screen door.
Our one encounter with a "pit bull" had my heart momentarily in my throat. My intact boy was about 16 months old and we were walking down the sidewalk, approaching a driveway. There was a truck parked in the driveway, and once we passed the bed of the truck, I caught a "pit bull" taking a few steps toward us, alert. His owner was on a cell phone beside the truck, looked up and told the dog sit/stay. Dog sat and stayed. I wanted to go give that guy a hug!
Believe me, when pit bulls are no longer welcomed in communties, drug dealers and other thugs will look to Black Russian Terriers, Presa Canario, bouviers, or something else. I imagine it's not too hard to make a dog of just about any breed vicious by beating and baiting it to no end...
(The other issue is the AKC, papers, breeding requirements/regulating, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.)
My2cents,
Missy
"if they choose to have a pet like this. Its like having a pet alligator!"
I agree - it is and it bears the same responsibiiities.
If you own horses - I lived on ranches - you do not allow unsupervised children or ignorant adults around your horses either - a horse can kill faster & easier than by a pit bull. One of my pit bulls found out my horse was a lot tougher than he was. He's still limping 12 years later.
They get along great with my cats also - never biting at them even when they were clawed - my cats are NEVER DECLAWED either.
It's interesting how it's the SPCA who wants these animals dead the most! Just like all the other liberals and fanatics that suffer from a lack of intelligence.
The SPCA - for those who don't know - is the ARMED branch of PETA, ELF and ALF with full confiscatory powers by untrained zealots. If they want to charge you with an "animal crime" did you know that in most states you will be sent in for a MANDATORY psychiatric evaluation?
Shades of the soviet gulag, nyet?
No I have never had direct dealing with these nut cases.
Why do people own these dogs?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See my post 12 . . . "Give a gangsta a couple of goofy old lovable Golden Retrievers and 8-10 generations and he could breed and train Killer Goldens."
I know a couple of Goldens who would be good candidates for such a breeding program . . . they are field Goldens, the "little red dogs", and they generally are a lot sharper and more prey-driven than the average big lazy lunk of a house pet Golden. They need that drive and aggressiveness to perform in field trials, especially since they're competing with the Labs who are much faster, especially in the water. But some of them have it to a degree that makes them aggressive towards other dogs and humans, and if you were to breed exclusively for the aggressiveness, you could get some VERY mean Goldens in a few generations.
Same thing goes with the German Shepherds - the ones bred for schützen are much "sharper" than the American show variety.
So by choosing the parents, you could make almost any breed inherently vicious.
I'm not against banning the breed, but I'm for hammering the owners first. Massive fines, automatic jail time and total liability to those injured in the event of an attack and steep home and renter insurance premiums. Most don't own a home outright and must have insurance to get a mortgage. Go after the landlords as well. Make these dogs so expensive to own that no one wants one. Go after the breeders as well. Make neutering mandatory for licensing. If these measures don't stop the attacks, then ban the breed.
Thank you for the information.
I thought I might have seen you around the agility trials -- since there's a lady here with three Bernese Mountain Dogs -- but I see you live in Michigan. Which association do you run, and what kind of dogs do you have?
My little Lab is OA, NAJ in AKC and has her Agility Dog title in USDAA . . . she loves agility almost as much as she loves chasing ducks.
The trial season is just getting cranked back up here (it's too hot to run until late October/early November) and we're hoping to finish up her Open jumpers title and work our way through the next level of USDAA this season.
Amen to that, brother!
A lot of small dog owners tolerate totally unacceptable behavior and think it's "cute" because their dogs are so tiny they think they can't hurt anybody. But they can. A small dog bite HURTS, an infected bite can kill you (just more slowly), and they could still be dangerous to a child or baby (there was a Pom of all things that killed an infant awhile back).
I work hard with my Lab getting her to behave and sit (she loves to run to people and fawn on their legs, but she's FINALLY getting the message at age 4 that you can't just do that to everyone), and I resent people who let their dogs just run wild and yap at everyone and everything.
The kicker for me is that everyone thinks my dog is "so well trained" - she's not, she's a Silly Lab, but apparently to most people ANY training is a marvel and wonder.
Exactly, and conversely, one can "breed out" aggression. I have read that when dobermans were first brought to the US in the 1920s and presented at conformation events, they were so sharp and aggressive that judges could not put their hands on the dogs.
Serious dobe fanciers in this country decided that this could not stand and, by carefully selecting "easier" breeding stock, they managed to soften the temperament to a desirable level, one that allowed judges (and others) to actually touch the dogs while still retaining their working abilities.
Well, they've succeeded admirably, there are two Dobes in our agility class who are both adorable. The female is not really sharp, but she's wound a little tight and a bit nervous. The male is a big, placid, friendly lunk from show lines, he's always happy to see you. My little Lab is in love . . . she fawns on his legs and kisses his face. He smiles benignly and kisses back.
I have a labby/beagle mix in my little pack here. I agree that any well-trained lab *is* a marvel.
I have not yet trialed my herding dog in agility. He's a 22 month old intact boy, and I started him in agility class (he loves weaving!) at the end of summer for confidence-building and just to keep him out in the world.
He was given to me last fall when he was 10 months old, having spent most of his puppyhood in a kennel and needing lots of remedial socialization.
We are up to adv novice/open in our obedience classes and, although I don't have firm plans to trial him anytime soon, I intend to keep working him in obedience and different venues until he is at least past adolescence.
Missy (who believes that serious breeds require a serious commitment to training and socialization)
I have a labby/beagle mix (and he is a crazy, little nutter), a golden, and a briard.
Good luck with your trialing.
Tough dogs. Still, I wouldn't expect a bat to have much effect on any large dog, unless you got a really good hit to the skull.
Better an axe or even a big crowbar, or best a 12GA.
Nominated for "FR Understatement Of The Year".
Paris Hiltons fame, and Massachussets, are evidence enough.
Nominated for "FR Understatement Of The Year".
Well, not EVERYbody is stupid (witness all the nice FReepers), so there must be a finite number, but every time I think I've got a handle on it, more stupid people pop up. < g >
Haven't seen any around the agility ring here.
My girl started in obedience, but she is such a live wire . . . our trainer said, "You know, I think she'd be happier in agility." And she was.
I don't think I'm going to take her on to MACh, just retire her with her Excellent A title . . . so then we may go back to obedience now that she's 4 years old and a LOT calmer.
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