Posted on 07/06/2005 10:44:42 AM PDT by Jenny Hatch
"I see you have not addressed at all the alleged Snopes connection. "
I dont know what you mean by this statement. Is it that Snopes is run by big pharma, or is it that snopes calls Codex an urban legend? If you read the whole snopes piece it does admit that this is a power grab by the docs who plan to use prescription power to dispense vitamins and minerals.
YOu said
"My major objection to "alternative medicine" is that first of all its proponents typically rabidly deny any usefullness of traditional medicine at all"
That is definitely not me. I think of the C-section as the greatest medical invention of the 20th century. I know that it saves lives and that this surgery is a gift from God. However, I do not believe that the rates our world is currently experiencing, 25%, 30%, 50% in some countries is normal or good.
"secondly that there is no proof that any of these "cures" work"
This is such an obviously ignorant statement, I really don't know how to respond. When those of us into alternative healing claim cure, the pharma companies yell "anecdote" as if our cures and healing have no validity because it was not double blind studied.
The mayo clinic web site has an exellent overview of alternative healing modalities and this article also helps to explain why it is difficult to claim "proof" of efficacy. Here is the link
http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?id=PN00001
I have all the "proof" I need based on what is not happening in my life on any given day. This focus on prevention is where I have put 90% of my energies.
For example. In researching how to prevent Psychosis in myself post partum, I researched various healing modalities and found the Aryuveda Mother baby program, which in it's literature claimed that if I did this protocol after birth I could "prevent" post partum psychosis. This was the only healing protocol that made this claim, and as noted in the Mayo clinic article, Aryuveda is based on 6,000 years of history in India.
Here is a link to a web site
http://www.sacredwindow.com/index.html
Based on my research and the hope that this protocol sounded like it was based in common sense and prevention, we hired an Aryadoula to come take care of me for six weeks after the birth of our fifth baby.
This care included a 90 minutes massage five times a week, infusions of herbs, and the doula brought me five ounces of wheat grass every day as well as hot vegetarian foods which were cooked using aryuvedic principles. In the six weeks after our birth I had 35 massages, and ate the foods, drank the teas, and enjoyed eating the meals.
Guess what? No psychosis, no depression, no breast infections, and no problem healing after the painful and difficult birth of my child.
The stats for a repeat psychosis are not good. A new mother has a 1 in 1000 chance of experiencing a psychosis after birth, if she has that happen her stats go to 1 in 6 of it happening again. Those odds, coupled with the fact that Andrea Yates had just killed her five kids in a psychotic rage upped the emotion of this decision to a very high degree. My husband and I had no problem shelling out the $6,000.00 for this lush care if it meant we could prevent that happening.
That's right, we paid that money out of pocket for a sound alternative healing protocol that is based on thousands of years of practice. Since it was about our only cost during the pregnancy, and because it worked, we feel gratified for the experience.
I know several women right now who have been given anti-depressants while pregnant in order to "prevent" a post partum emotional illness. This is not only bad medicine, it is bad science. Why any doctor would assume that giving mothers LSD during pregnancy would prevent a depression or psychosis is simply insane thinking and practice.
WHen I compare this thrice daily dose of toxic chemicals to my lush daily massage and use of herbals and healing nutritious food, and think that people like you call what I have done quackery and hold up that chemical saturation of the mothers brain as "sound medical science". It is at that point that we really have nothing to discuss.
Jenny
This is such an obviously ignorant statement, I really don't know how to respond. When those of us into alternative healing claim cure, the pharma companies yell "anecdote" as if our cures and healing have no validity because it was not double blind studied.
That was such an obviously ignorant statement, I really don't know how to respond. While there might be some people who have had success in curing their warts by following the method prescribed in Tom Sawyer of swinging a dead cat around one's head at midnight in a graveyard, that does not necessarily mean that the cure was due to this unusual treatment. In order to determine if this was really efficacious, you'd need to get together a study (not necessarily double-blind, I'm not sure why you seem to think that's required) comparing a large group of cat swingers with a large group that merely had their warts frozen off. Perhaps there would be a reduction of warts in the cat swinger's group. In that case one wouldn't necessarily say that it was proved that this worked, but they could say with a varying level of significance that cat swinging was associated with a reduction in the number of warts.
I'm glad your method for preventing post-partum psychosis seems to have worked (although we can't conclude that's the reason why). I don't think that I would call that method alternative medicine, however. It seems more a regimen designed to reduce stress, and traditional medicine definitely recognizes the benefits of stress reduction.
Hey, I'll wear a hat that says "I'm An Aryadoula", and only charge women *$3000* dollars to massage them.
Of course I get to pick my patients, ok? (nyuk! nyuk! nyuk!)
YOu are such a jerk, I am not going to ever respond to anything you say again.
Goodbye...
Jenny
"Just wondering, you think that everything can be treated with vitamins, minerals, and supplements from plant and animal sources? There is nothing that traditional medicine cannot treat better than alternative medicine?"
Allopathic medicine shines best during an Emergency. The quick motion of the drugs can in fact stop the asthma attack, the heart attack, help to stop the hemorrhage, the burn, the anaphalaxis...etc etc....
Of course there is room in our world for allopathic medicine. We use it and are grateful for it. Even allopathic medicine, in some quarters, like the Mayo Clinic article recognizes, understands that the best approach is one that includes all healing modalities.
The job of the consumer is to learn enough about each healing modality that they know when a certain approach is appropriate, and when an approach is reaching it's limits.
I believe allopathic medicine is a horrible modality when it comes to mental health and obstetrics. Barring a true emergency in those situations, like a car accident where the mother must be delivered immediately by c-section to save the life of the mother and the baby, or when someone is in a suicidal state, etc...and must be on suicide watch, I believe these modalities are extremely limited in terms of what they have to offer to consumers. And are in fact befuddled by an overdependence on drugs and surgery.
What I hate is the monopoly, the fact that all research dollars, all advertising, all government programs use the allopathic model to the exclusion of other healing. When in fact naturopathy, homeopathy, chiropractic, midwifery etc.etc...have powerful healing to offer to consumers.
I hope this clarifys.
Jenny
"You alleged that Snopes was set up by "big pharma" for the express purpose of bashing alternative medicine, but you never gave any evidence. "
Clarification - I believe quackwatch has ties to big pharma money, and I believe Snopes is simply spouting the party line in regards to Big Pharma and Codex...
Here are a few insightful commentaries...
http://www.theuniversalseduction.com/articles.php?subaction=showfull&id=1110602338&archive=&start_from=&ucat=2&
"I have received many emails asking for clarification of the "snopes.com" explanation of Codex. Now, when you have a website that is supposed to give the bottom line on urban legends and internet rumors, their position is very distressing. They seem to be cut from that "Big Pharma" cloth, spouting the party line"
http://www.ymlp.com/pubarchive_show_message.php?jham+288
"Snopes website said:
Vitamin See
Claim: American consumers risk losing their right to purchase and use vitamins, minerals, and dietary supplements.
IAHF Comment: [This is true. The SNOPES analysis below is grossly simplistic. To assert that Codex is a "non issue" just because S.722 and HR 3377 have not yet been reintroduced in the new congress is patently absurd, especially given that quick phonecalls to both Durbin's and Davis's offices indicates that they fully intend to reintroduce both bills, with slight changes, under new bill numbers, sometime in this new congress. We go through this EVERY Congress, and the REST of Mikkelson's simplistic analysis totally falls apart especially because she merely echoes the FDA's spin. (complete details below) Anyone can believe FDA (and Snopes) spin on this issue if they want to- but they'd be totally ignoring a slew of unassailable FACTS presented below.]
[I am not the originator of Wallace Heath's information, either. He never ran his alert past me for editorial input before he circulated it. I never even KNEW the guy til after he circulated it. He lives in Bellingham, Washington (one hour south of me) and his was an honest attempt to try to fight back, but he wasn't up to speed on the issue before he circulated his alert and he unwittingly played right into the spin doctor's hands.]"
"Snopes said:
Status: Multiple see below:
In June 2005 the USA will be forced to accept Codex regulation of vitamins, minerals, and dietary supplements: False.
IAHF: [This IS false, but I never said vitamins would be banned in the USA in June of 2005, Wallace Heath said that due to not having all his facts straight, What I have been telling people is that between July 4th and 9th 1995 the 28th General Session of the UN's Codex Alimentarius Commission will be held in Rome, Italy and a highly draconian global trade standard for vitamins and minerals will be ratified at that time unless a last ditch global campaign to stop this criminal agenda succeeds.]
[Unless we succeed in stopping this, the USA would be set up to lose in a future WTO trade dispute as a result of which Congress would be forced via the threat of cross sector sanctioning to harmonize our supplement laws to the Codex standard or huge sanctions could be levied against broad sectors of our economy. At the same time this is happening, huge domestic attacks are occurring against the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994, with the Institute of Medicine at the National Academy of Sciences being joined by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative MEdicine in calling for the Repealment of DSHEA.]
[This attack is not happening in a vaccuum, its part of a broader global pattern of pharma attack against the natural supplements industry which I've been documenting since I created IAHF in '96 to catalyse awareness of this complex issue.] "
"Snopes says:
Example: [Collected on the Internet, 2005]
Your right to choose your vitamin, mineral and other supplements may end in June of this year (2005). After that U.S. supplements will be defined and controlled by the World Trade Organization (WTO) and the World Health Organization (WHO).
The CODEX ALIMENTARIUS (Food Code) is setting the supplement standards for all countries in the WTO. They will be enforced by the WTO and will over ride U.S. laws. The U.S. President and Congress agreed to this take-over when the WTO Treaty was signed. Violations are punished by WTO trade sanctions.
CODEX drastically restricts vitamins, minerals, herbs and other supplements. CODEX met secretly in November, 2004 and finalized "Step 8 (the final stage)" to begin implementation in June, 2005.
IAHF: [They did not "meet secretly". That is a slight over dramatization by Wallace Heath in his efforts to condense this issue to just one page, but it is none the less true that there is a gross lack of transparency in the Codex process. I know. I videotaped part of the CCNFSDU meeting in Berlin Germany in '98 but was stopped by the Chair of the meeting and was forced to turn my cam corder off.]
[If I had not, at the very least they would have confiscated my videotape, and if I had gone beyond what I had already done to disrupt the meeting, I would have found myself in a German jail cell on trumped up charges. I digitized a portion of the videotape and it was up on the web for a few years on a tripod site (a free hosting site) but tripod later shut that site down. I still have the footage, but its not in cyberspace at the current time. I was, however, thrown off the US Delegation prior to the meeting in Berlin in 2000 by US Codex Manager Dr.Ed Scarborough at the US Department of Agriculture who is US Codex Manager at the US Codex Office- see details: http://www.iahf.com/codex/20000603.html]
[I was thrown off the US Delegation just prior to the CCNFSDU meeting in Berlin in 2000 due to efforts to be a whistleblower against Yetley- US Delegate to the Codex Committee on Nutrition and Foods For Special Dietary Uses. The German government has permanently banned my participation in Codex meetings even though I am a licensed, credentialled member of the press because of what happened after the '98 meeting when I put my video footage on the web showing them force me to shut my camcorder down."
"SNOPES SAID:
In 2004, according to the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, almost one in five Americans (19%) reported using a supplement, which means the pool of folks at risk is great. Yet the incentives are there for the dietary supplement industry to keep on doing what it has been doing: in 2002, it reported $18.7 billion in sales. With so much profit at stake, there is little desire on the part of manufacturers to police themselves or their products all that carefully.
IAHF: [This sort of spin is outrageous. This table shows the relative risk of ingesting dietary supplements compared with using prescription drugs, getting hit by lightening, and numerous other objectively measured risks http://www.laleva.cc/supplements/medical_injury_law.pdf ]
[As you can see from these statistics, the risk of injury from consuming foods in common form is FAR greater than the risk of consuming dietary supplements, but we don't see FDA engaging in a witch hunt against foods in common form. (Gee, I WONDER why? ha ha) So WHAT if supplement sales totalled $18.7 billion in sales in 2002?]
[Thats just a drop in the BUCKET compared with PHARMACEUTICAL SALES, and statements like this are merely an indicator of how scared the drug companies are as they see consumers fleeing from their midst in droves as more and more people turn to using supplements as they take charge of their own health and STAY CLEAR of hospitals and doctors completely. The vast majority of supplement companies are very responsible when it comes to following good manufacturing standards, and the assertion that these products are putting large numbers of people at risk is outrageous and unsubstantiated.]
[NCCAM has been hijacked by the pharma elements that control NIH such that its original purpose as envisioned by Senator Tom Harkin and Congressman Berkley Bedell has been subverted, which forced Bedell to create his own private Foundation http://www.nfam.org
http://www.theomnivore.com/February%2027%202005%20Newsletter.html
"I recently visited a number of forums where concerned supplement users had expressed their fears about the implications of CODEX. Inevitably, some "enlightened" respondent replied to these concerns by posting the URL for Mikkelson's Snopes.com article, as if it represented the final word on the subject.
To my amazement, in almost every instance the concerned chat room participant who started the thread expressed relief after reading the Snopes article, or even apologized for "unnecessarily" alarming their fellow supplement users!!
Crikey…
"Hey everybody, it's OK! CODEX is not really the threat it's been made out to be, because a single internet writer from some "hoax-debunking" web site called "Snopes" said so! Whew, what a relief!"
How can some people be so gullible?
Never mind that Mikkelson doesn't even begin to understand what CODEX is all about, nor that she naively parrots the official party line on CODEX. As the IAHF's John Hammell explained, Mikkelson "…is in way over her head when it comes to assessing this complex issue."
Hammell should know. For the last eight years, he has engaged in a full-time mission to protect our access to dietary supplements. Few people have studiously examined the regulatory maze and the true agenda behind CODEX to the extent that Hammell has.
A few weeks ago, I had never heard of Snopes.com. I have since found out that it is a widely-read site, and I have to wonder how much damage has been done to the fight for unimpaired access to dietary supplements by Mikkelson's misguided article. Fortunately, some forum participants have begun posting my page Is the threat of CODEX simply an "Urban Legend"?--which contains Hammell's detailed reply to Mikkelson's empty allegations--in response to those who triumphantly posted the URL to the Snopes article."
Hopefully this will give you some food for thought, but if you want to do your own search, just google snopes, big pharma, and codex and you will get an earfull from the blogs...
Jenny
Listen lady, we here respect anyone out making an honest buck, but selling 60ml of oil essence for US$282 is obscene. To put your name and photo above it makes it even worse.
I personally worked within the health ins. industry, and have negotiated health plans that include "alternative therapies" that have solid peer reviewed research behind them, to be included in the plans' covered benefits.
While the companies didn't include feng shui, they did include Bach aroma, acupuncture, at least a dozen massage disciplines, and various other alternative medicines, including Japanese childbirth and rapid detox with herbal supplements. To insist that the medical industry is trying to shut this down is a form of paranoia. Or a good sales technique.
I don't care if you're selling hysterics, but don't expect people to let you skate on a messageboard such as FR.
You should alert your husband to this thread.
My advise to your husband, stop her MLM scheme immediately, stop all contact with her upline and downline, give up the commissions & liquidate the inventory at any price immediately, and remove her from her current situation, going so far as to find a deprogramming psychiatrist and start a regular outpatient counseling regiment.
Good luck, and do what needs to be done for your family.
"You should alert your husband to this thread."
My husband is well aware of this thread, and I am not expecting anyone to let me "skate" on Free Republic. I am happy to debate any subject, any time, but I will not "Chat" with losers who personally attack and mock and shove their bias in my general direction.
Sounds like you have half a brain though. Why don't you purchase a bottle of essential oils and learn for yourself, instead of looking at the price tag and immediately judging an amazing healing modality as bogus simply based on the price???
Jenny
OK folks, see my post #123 if you want Jenny to NEVER respond to anything you say again!
Oh Jenny?
Does this mean the $1000 bet is off too?
Oh my member number is 29526 if you would like to join my group, and I also write a newsletter to teach families how to use the oils for natural home health care. I also wrote this great piece on oils found at compleat mother...
http://www.compleatmother.com/articles2/roses.htm
I also do consults
http://www.naturalfamilyco.com/contact/index.html
for Aromatherapy and have taught all day workshops in various locations around the country.
If you would like to learn more just contact me through my web site...
Wow dude, thanks for helping me to spread the good news, if I did not have you shilling for me, I might just have to make a living working for big pharma...
Jenny Hatch
Proud Network Marketer, and Essential Oils enthusiast!
No thanks. I own my own presses, distiller and enfleurage setups. buy direct from importers. Steam pressed orange blossom essence at retail is selling for less than your oils by volume. And probably potency also.
If you believe so much in Bach, cut your own deal with an importer and start your own business, and get out of the rip off artist MLM business.
I don't really have anything else to say to you, so I'll leave it at this, the same people at the top of the MLM pyramids have been selling the same tired conspiracy theories to waves and waves of dupes since the late 1980's at least.
The one time the FDA moved to implement vita/nutri supplement controls, they received millions of responses in the public input period. More than all previous public input periods combined. No one is going to invoke that wrath again willingly.
Don't sell hysterics on FR.
By the way...
I've got this great recipe for genuine Texas Chili, and as you may or may not know, REAL chili does NOT have beans, it is comprised of three basic ingredients, tomatoes, onions and beef. Everything else is just seasoning and accessories.
Anyway, you mix in your cumin, curry powder, chili powder, ground white pepper into a small pot with your favorite beer, and bring it not quite to a boil, just barely to a simmer until all the spices are well dissolved, then you pour it into the big vat of tomatoes, onions and beef.
Add corn meal to thicken it up as desired, and don't forget the two secret ingredients recommended by no less than Willie Nelson himself, honey (in place of sugar to kill the acid of the tomatoes) and CHOCOLATE! Yes, I said chocolate. Don't go overboard, just about 1 big tablespoon per big vat of chili will do, but it does things for chili that you just can't imagine!
When it's ready to serve, I recommend Cincinanti-style chili, that's chili served on a bed of spaghetti, with raw chopped onions and shredded cheese on top, with a small bowl of beans on the side. (Beans are ALWAYS served on the side, NEVER cooked into the chili!)
Oh, by the way, after you finish that up, give it about an hour or so, and then?
THAT is when the Aromatherapy begins! :)
I know you'll just love it!
"Don't sell hysterics on FR"
My research has convinced me that Codex is not hysterics, and you are right, when people finally realize what is going on, they are going to flood congress with very strong opinions. Problem is, few people are even aware this is going on, and the snopes web site is being used almost exclusively to debunk Codex in the chat rooms. I'm just making the case that it would be wise to open up our minds to the reality of what has been just voted on in Rome.
How it will play out? Well, that remains to be seen.
Good work on the flower distilling. That's cool. I don't have the time to do that sort of work, but it is amazing the healing that results when the full potency of the plant is used. However, Essential oils are not Bach, which are often cut with alcohol. Young Living essential oils are organic therapuetic grade A Essential oils, also steam distilled, but using specific pressure and temperature to keep the medicinal properties intact.
They are extremely powerful and I have used them almost exclusively daily, for over eight years.
My kids love the oils, the use them all the time too.
I don't "sell" the oils, don't have an inventory, etc... I simply "teach" families how to use them and they order for themselves off the internet.
As for the cost of the feelings kit, it is a group of 12 oil blends that contain some of the most expensive oils produced - like Rose and Melissa oil. It is pricey, but I only do the application about once a month, and so the kit lasts for years when I purchase one. heck of a lot cheaper than a psychiatrist...$100.00 a visit.
Do they have de-programming psychiatrists out there? I've never heard of any doing MLM depro work. Hee hee.
Jenny
I'd like to take a minute to acknowledge what happened in London today. I feel sort of selfish focusing on this thread and defending it while not taking any time today to offer condolences and prayers for those who are suffering. I'm going to bed now, but just wanted to offer any Londoners out there my heartfelt prayers and hope for speedy healing and recovery from today's terrible terrorist attack.
Jenny Hatch
Sorry, that statement right there does it for me. Your faith appears to be based on how much it agrees with your thinking rather than true doctrine or theological principles. The fact that Scientology appeals to you so strongly, in that regard, is definitely scary. By the way, I think Scientologists are some of the most whacked people in the world right now.... maybe a notch or two lower than the Islamic Terrorist Whackos. Those guys are really on my poop list.
"Sorry, that statement right there does it for me. Your faith appears to be based on how much it agrees with your thinking rather than true doctrine or theological principles."
My faith is in Jesus Christ, and I have a deep and abiding testimony of his Ministry and his Atonement. I really don't know much about the scientologists, except they are fighting psychiatry in a very public way. But I like what I have seen so far, and I would be honored to help them expose the lies of Psychiatry in a much more public way, while maintaining my LDS affiliation.
I was watching Fox News a couple nights ago and a man affiliated with a natural healing group was being interviewed by Tony Snow and he just summed it up as "God bless Tom Cruise" Many of us in the psychiatric survivor groups are grateful for Tom's courage. And many of us are thrilled that finally a celebrity is willing to stand for something real and good.
As I said in an earlier post to someone else, I am not here to convince you that I am right or that I live the best lifestyle, or even that my way is the only way to live. What I am about, both on my web site, and in my promotion of natural living is simply in helping women especially to realize that they do have choices in terms of birth and mental health. Valid and legitimate choices.
To link scientologists with terrorists is just a little bit extreme, don't you think? Actually, based on my experience with psychiatry - being forced to take meds from a court order, and suffering the terrible aftereffects of being incarcerated for six weeks, coupled with the various abuses that occured while I was locked up, the true terrorists in our society, at least in terms of power, control, agendas, and long terms results of actions....are in fact psychiatrists....
Read through some of these survivor testimonials...hundreds of them are cached on this web site...
http://www.drugawareness.org/Archives/Survivors/survivor_index.html
I am only one of many, many survivors...
Jenny
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