The FreeRepublic Saddle Club thread - Thread THREE!

[tuffydoodle]

Horses never cease to amaze me and it's so difficult to predict what they are going to do. When I brought Winnie the mare home I kept her in a round pen in the other horses pasture so they could get to know each other but not hurt each other. None of my horses are territorial (or so I thought) so after a few days I let Winnie out with the crowd. They were all fine for a few minutes and I was getting ready to leave them alone when Tuffy went berserko. I thought he was going to kill Winnie so I took my chances and went in there to get her out. I was stunned, I have never seen Tuffy behave that way. He's not even top dog in the pasture, he's second in command. When the top dog got in between Tuffy and Winnie (I swear he was trying to protect Winnie) Tuffy started kicking him for all he was worth and the top dog backed off, a very unusual happening and hasn't happened since, the pecking order is back to where it was.

[FrogInABlender]

Yeah, it's like everybody is comfortable with where they are in the pecking order, then you introduce a new horse and it upsets the apple cart and everybody has to work it back out where they fit in, and I swear, mares are as bad as stallions. I'm surprised about your gelding. But then, I my old gelding, Tennessee, did something similar one time. I had just bought Bluebell and she had 3mth old Blade by her side. They were alone in the pasture at the house and I decided to bring Tennessee and Truly, my other mare, over there for the night so I could take them to have their teeth done the next morning. I turned them in there and the first thing Tennessee did was try and check out the baby. He was just curious, but Bluebell was NOT amused and charged him and tried to kick him. WELL, he was top dog and was NOT going to be treated that way. He ran them all over that pasture, hemmed them up in a corner and proceeded to kick the tar out of Bluebell. Poor Blade didn't know what to do coz he was in the corner so he tries to go over the fence. I'm screaming like a crazy woman and throwing rocks at Tennessee and my husband is on the other side of the fence trying to keep Blade from hurting himself. They broke it off, I took Tennessee and Truly back to my in-law's, and I learned never to do that again. Whew!

[HairOfTheDog]

Good advice to be cautious introducing new horses to a group. Caution is best, and patience. We are always excited to see how they are all going to do together and eager to push it faster than it should go.

I too, was surprised at the behavior of my Bay who I thought I knew so well. I knew he was studly and aggressive to other geldings, but thought Bay would accept and adore another mare easily, and he did not, if you recall....

Best to introduce them for a few days through a barrier they can't kick through and get caught up in. My safest spot was this gate and wood fence where my paddock and pasture meet. The only thing not perfect about this set up is that there is wire field mesh on the wood fence that I worried about, but lucked out on, there was no striking or kicking through it.

We should have left them like this for at least another day.... three days, when they are really passive and ignoring each other, would be better... When I turned them out together, the new mare still got beat up by Bay.

I would also seperated them so each of them is alone when introduced to the new horse. There a herd dynamic that happens where even the pony, protected by Bay, took part in chasing her around... this was after most of the actual rough stuff was over, this was the behavior of the next few days, establishing the new pecking order.

[deaconjim]

Becky,

I've just read over your training advice and really appreciated your comments, and thought I would stand in line for some advice.

I'm about to start working with Misty in the round pen again. (I hope, if things settle down here). I haven't done much with her yet, just got her in there and tried to mimic what our trainer was doing with Lightning.
With Lightning, we put him in the round pen, and use the lunge whip to control/motivate him. He responds to it quite well, and does pretty much what we expect of him. Misty, on the other hand, as soon as she hears the whip crack, immediately turns and walks straight to me and stands in front of me. I know I need to establish my space with her, but I haven't been able to get her to do anything else

Misty is a 15 year old mare that has been used as a trail
horse. The previous owner, I've found out, knew less than I do about training, and I think, allowed her to develop some bad habits. He has since told me that he would chase her around the round pen by slapping the ground behind her with a rope to exercise her before riding, and apparently that was the full extent of his training knowledge.

Lightening's trainer watched her do this, and his advice was to sell her and buy another horse. I think it would be less work to get her to come around than selling her and buying another horse would be.

[deaconjim]

I'm not real sure what what happened to the formatting there....

[FrogInABlender]

He doesn't sound like much of a trainer if you ask me. Why would he want you to get rid of a perfectly good horse that has a few issues and buy another one, who is probably also going to have issues too, just different ones. Unless he has a perfect push-botton horse for you in his back pocket, which I doubt. But even if he does, that horse is going to cost a whole lot more than the one you have. I say it's better to dance with the devil you know than take a chance on one you don't. I'd try to work the kinks out yourself, unless she's dangerous or something, which by your posts I don't think she is. I'd much rather have a horse that'll come to me than one who won't. Just my 2 cents worth. :o)

[Duchess47]

I believe that he won't be two until April so way too young to ride. I'd spend this year getting him ready - as you said, sacking him out, driving him with long reins, getting used to a saddle, etc. If the time was there and it sounds like with a young girl it will be, teach him to go over or around all types of obstacles.

He looks to be a solid, sturdy guy - he might be ready for a rider by fall but I probably wouldn't start any hard riding until next year when he's a three year old.

[deaconjim]

Actually, he's a very good trainer and he wasn't making that as a serious suggestion, but he also didn't make any other suggestions. I think he just saw that she had been the victim of some poor training, and figured it would be more work than I had time to do (and that is very possibly true). I agree with you, though, that another horse could be more trouble than she is.

She's definitely not dangerous, just a bit head strong on occasion. I think she will be a great horse, and I want get some training experience with her, which is why I'm not turning her over to Tim.

[Duchess47]

Could be somewhere along the line she was trained to do that - our horses are trained to stop and come in when told to do so. If she's not charging you and it doesn't sound like that, it may just be how she was trained at one point.

At her age, she's probably had several owners - it may be fun to learn what she knows. Try voice commands and see what happens :)

[HairOfTheDog]

I know that Becky will answer that she is not a fan of free lunging or free round pen work, and I'm not a believer in it either. It teaches only the most very basic lessons of 'run away' when I chase you, which is really not all that helpful to us in preparing horses to ride and work. I would teach the horse to lunge with a line and teach the horse to respond to verbal commands to walk, trot, canter and woah, enforced by lungeline correction or the whip as needed. It teaches skills and responsiveness to commands with a lot more precision than free lunging.

[FrogInABlender]

(opens mouth, removes foot) Oh, sorry then. I didn't know he was kidding. The printed word leaves a lot of gaps.

Are you working her on a line inside the round pen, or just loose in the pen?

[deaconjim]

She's not charging, just doing a "front and center" move and "awaiting further instructions". That trait could be very advantageous in fact, as long as I can figure out how to move her around the pen when I want to. I guess I could always use a rope to slap the ground...

She had gotten quite pasture wild for awhile, and to break her from that I used the "rope on the ground" routine to chase her around the pasture for awhile until she got tired of it and came to me. I don't think that's what taught her the "front and center" move.

Voice commands (which Lightnening has learned quite well) are don't seem to work with Misty. That is actually what I wanted to teach her, but first I have to figure out how to get across to her what they mean.

[deaconjim]

That was my fault, I didn't really make that obvious, now that I look at the original post. The tone of voice that I use in my head when typing doesn't always show up in print (I haven't learned the html for that, yet).

I guess what I'm doing is free lunging, according to Hair.

[HairOfTheDog]

Misty, on the other hand, as soon as she hears the whip crack, immediately turns and walks straight to me and stands in front of me.

Depending on her attitude this can either be a challenge of you, standing her ground, or it could be a fear and confusion response. It's vital to know which thing she is doing.

Stopping and facing is a very common pot-hole they fall into while training to lunge. Sometimes they just don't know what you want and they stop and face you. The key for you in that instance is to reposition yourself so that you are 'aft' of her shoulder, looking at her hindquarter, and get her going forward again. It's important to not go to her, but don't be overly hard on her either.... when she moves forward praise that with voice. Don't let her stop or come to you until you ask for a woah and pull her in.

[restornu]

Hi CD I am doing find this is going to be a good year for me...hope all is well over at the FRSC I thought that picture of that horse was stunning!:)

[HairOfTheDog]

The tone of voice that I use in my head when typing doesn't always show up in print (I haven't learned the html for that, yet).

Written text is always cold... lots of misunderstandings happen that wouldn't happen in person!

[Duchess47]

Well, stand off of her shoulder, make sure that the whip if you are using one stays behind her and use the voice commands along with it. Praise her as soon as she does what you want her to. If she starts to come to you, call her to you, then pat her and start all over.

Just be very consistant, firm, and patient. By the way, don't work her too hard as long as she's nursing a foal.

[HairOfTheDog]

The key for you in that instance is to reposition yourself so that you are 'aft' of her shoulder, looking at her hindquarter, and get her going forward again.

Followup.... sometimes it is necessary to actually push her (at the neck or shoulder) out again if they have come in to you.... but the key is to not pet or comfort them at this point, you can push, soothe with low voice if necessary if she is really flustered and confused, but you don't want to reward it. After she moves forward and you have praised that with happy 'good' sounds, and before she can stop or screw up again, ASK for the WOAH, and reward her with a rub and a pat only then.

[Duchess47]

Another thing, you should be working her on a line, not free until she knows exactly what you want. And the reason for calling her to you if she turns and comes is so that she associates that with a command to come or come here, instead of her choice. And try saying whoa if she starts to do that, then come here if whoa doesn't stop her on the fence.

[HairOfTheDog]

I think our advice here is in conflict. I wouldn't allow or call her in if she starts to come in. ;~D