Thanks for a serious question. I don't think "the Ukrainians" had or have any real vote in anything. Neither "the Russians." Please don't forget that well before the Maidan and all, the princelings of Biden, Pelosi, Kerry and friends of Romney were extracting millions from a nation -- "the Ukrainians" -- where the median income was little more than a few thousand dollars, converted from hryvnia into USD.
Did "the Ukrainians" have any say in that? I wager they did not.
I don't think any people want to be invaded or killed. I count you in that number, as myself. But events and players across the much larger span of time than a couple of years are deep in the mire, and volunteers as well as the conscripted are losing their lives -- or taking lives -- in a far larger battle raging across time. As with the game of climate change, everything depends on where the "curtain of time" is begun and ended. I am sure that we would disagree about where the time boundaries are in this. But that is a matter of much longer and detailed discussion. I do suspect that certain interests, American and European, but not "the Americans" and not "the Europeans," have long fomented corruption and war for their own interests. And now they have it. And now we have it. What to do? It's an enormous discussion. ORYX is a tiny part of that, counting and tallying statistics.
I leave this comment with a quote from pre-WWII Germany and the humorist, Kurt Tucholsky, in "Französischer Witz," 1932. "The war? I cannot find it to be so bad! The death of one man: this is a catastrophe. Hundreds of thousands of deaths: that is a statistic!"
In the original, if you have interest:
„Der Krieg? Ich kann das nicht so schrecklich finden! Der Tod eines Menschen: das ist eine Katastrophe. Hunderttausend Tote: das ist eine Statistik!“
Best wishes.
I leave this comment with a quote from pre-WWII Germany and the humorist, Kurt Tucholsky, in “Französischer Witz,” 1932. “The war? I cannot find it to be so bad! The death of one man: this is a catastrophe. Hundreds of thousands of deaths: that is a statistic!”
—
see here for more accurate citations:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/21/death-statistic/
In 1925 a journalist and satirist named Kurt Tucholsky wrote a piece in a German newspaper that included a statement that was similar to the quotation. Here was the original text together with an English translation:[4]
Darauf sagt ein Diplomat vom Quai d’Orsay: „Der Krieg? Ich kann das nicht so schrecklich finden! Der Tod eines Menschen: das ist eine Katastrophe. Hunderttausend Tote: das ist eine Statistik!”
At which a diplomat from French Ministry of Foreign Affairs replies: “The war? I can’t find it too terrible! The death of one man: that is a catastrophe. One hundred thousand deaths: that is a statistic!”
This is a disingenuous reply.
No PEOPLE ever have a "say" in warfare and when attacked. National leaders, governments and politicians make such decisions.
This doesn't mean we should just write these people off as mere pawns in the political chess game. They are real people, like you and me, with real hopes, fears and lives. What is happening to them is clearly and morally wrong.
There are and have been more corrupt governments and countries in the long march of history. Ukraine is just one of many.
Even so, Hitler argued that Germans in Sudetenland were being culturally oppressed by the Czechs, Japan claimed China was interfering with their conquest of Manchukuo, Mexicans claimed White Anglos had no rights in Texas, etc., etc.When the Soviet Union fell, all 15 Russian Republics became independent nations, Ukraine and Russia being two of those. Both countries recognized each other's independence within a year.
Ukraine has had significant political problems, which is quite common in the world of newly minted independent states.
Maidan and military action in Donbas was part of a civil war. WE Americans--if you are one--know well about the horror and brutality of civil war, as should Russians.
Right before the invasion on 24 February 2022, Putin made a long speech declaring Ukraine not an independent nation, but part of HIS country, even though Russia had legally, before the entire world, signed a treaty respecting their sovereignty. There was no attempt to explain and justify this huge flip in a new direction, nor any attempt to go before the world, As Bush did about WMD in Iraq (which, by the way, was huge mistake on our part) to let the world have a say.
Some peoples are not a nation. They fight civil wars to get nationhood. Some win, as in South Sudan, other lose as in Biafra, Nigeria. Donbas's struggle was heavily influenced by the Russian military. The Russian
The world does have a say in regard to who is a nation.
Hate them or love them, the UN is a place for such disputes.
Before this institution, nations just went to war and conquered or lost to other nations almost continuously.
There is a place in the modern world for debate--not just attack them and tell the world to f off... Might makes right. No.
Russia did indeed violate this standard and 70-year tradition.
Therefore, an honest man will look at this and conclude the suffering of the Ukrainian people at the hands of another nation's military is a crime and should stop. Ukraine isn't killing Russians in Russia, but Russia is killing Ukrainians in Ukraine.
I do.
Like many though, I am repulsed by the corruption of our politicians over Ukraine, but these SOBs (our politicians) are corrupt to begin with, and Ukraine was just the vehicle they used. They could (and probably ARE--see Joe Biden and China, Fauci, etc.) use almost any third world or developing country in the world.
Should our adversaries invade them?
the bolshevik storm
the communists started in russia
came back via ukraine
to hit them back
now they have to fight
the tsunami - mad child ( Liberals)
they created