I suspect that you need this:
Ten wars, 6 million deaths, 0 sanctions
Posted on 07/25/2022 6:05:52 AM PDT by PK1991
It’d be fairer to say that the offer was right there on the table for Russia to do what almost every other former European SSR did after the breakup of the USSR. Clean up its act, develop a rule of law with an independent judiciary, invest in skills, modernise, ditch the gangsterism, and be less up their own arses with delusions of restoring a 19th century greatness.
Khodorkhovsky started out as a commie, became a kleptocrat, then lobbied for that change - and ended up in prison with his business empire stripped apart and handed to Putin’s mates. That was a catastrophic mistake, not the breakup of the USSR. Russia would’ve profited enormously if Putin had adopted those reforms. Czechoslovakia did. The Baltic states did. Poland did. None of them are as third world space cadet as Russia is right now.
Russia, Belarus and Ukraine understandably clung onto their old ways with the ex KGB FSB Mafioso basically robbing their ways into an untouchable elite. Their countries are corrupt as hell and poor as shit BECAUSE they can’t shake off these criminal fraternities.
Thing is, Putin’s vision of a New World Order is exactly what the anti-globohomo Freepers insist they’re opposed to TIMES TEN. An unaccountable, amoral network of Russkiy Mir aligned Zaibatsus appointed by Putin or by Xi, where offending the Capo de Tutti Capi gets you a short flight out of a seventh floor window if you’re lucky... for the unlucky it’s a novichok sandwich or a polonium enema.
Anyone remember what America thought and did about Japanese Zaibatsus? Korean chaebols?
Supporting Moscow’s vision is so idiotic it is up there with supporting a global franchising of the Cosa Nostra after they’ve taken over a nuclear stockpile and pounded several cities to rubble.
Because... they’re Christian (ish), and they sometimes build churches! And they go to church on sundays! And they don’t do Globohomo!
Yes, that’s all very nice but the average Russian peasant who is watching analogue TV on a cathode ray set, thinks Nutella is an extravagant luxury, and needs their son to bring a washing machine or boiler back on his way back from kicking inferior Khokol ass, hasn’t much more to lose by living in such misery.
How many Americans are prepared to take that big a retardation in their way of life to have what the vast vast majority of Russians have?
Oh, ye, like Turkey and Greece. You basically repeated my points in other words. Russia wasn’t a threat to the West since 1991, it simply wanted to belong.
Ukrainian crisis was easily avoidable as well. All NATO needed was to let the Minsk agreements implemented. The rest is history.
Why is the current US world vision so self righteous that we should be intervening half way across the globe? We invaded Iraq on a pretext, Afghanistan, Lybia, Syria, Yemen, drone strikes all over the world killing innocent civilians etc... Bio labs all over the world. I don’t know why our indebted country should be sending billions to the Ukraine. What is the America vision at this point we are showing the world? The World sees Afghans hanging off aircraft wheels as we abandon them. exporting banks, corporate raiders, Dr. Levine, and military weapons is our current gift to the world. We need to save Ukraine for “democracy” although they are one of the most corrupt in the world. Governments across the globe are all totally out of control and I fear the plans they have behind the scenes because nothing makes sense. “We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice and ensure domestic tranquility...”
All of that you have just said is BS and fantastic propaganda. Do you really believe that someone was stealing the washing machines? Do you realize the difference in the incomes between Ukraine and Russia? Do you know what is the minimal allowance of the deployed Russian servicemen?
Yes, they are stealing absolutely everything. Many Russian soldiers are as poor as church mice. Many come from the far reaches of the crumbling empire. That is not media propaganda. That is a fact from those who have been in the occupied areas.
How can you be so arrogant? You and your February prediction: “Kiev will fall within days.” And you still talk down to Freepers as if you are in the know. Ha! You are just a discredited paid Russian troll.
Deployed E1 in the Russian army makes $3,900 a month. That’s 10 times the Ukrainian average income. You say the Russians lack proper logistics and yet they are somehow risking their lives smuggling oversized appliances, worth 10% of their monthly allowance, only to ship them from Belgorod to Siberia.
Do you know how much does it cost to ship a washing machine from Western Russia to Buriatia? It is more affordable to buy brand-new there.
The stories of stolen appliances come out of the fact that Ze released and armed thousands of felons who never planned to fight but immediately descended on warehouses and wealthy neighborhoods. If you have Telegram there are tons of reports on that before these felons were designated ‘Russians’ for the purpose of propaganda.
All lies of course. It was not convicts stealing. It was Russian soldiers. They commit lots of crimes as you well know.
Are you of Goebbel’s school of propaganda? Many crimes like rapes all made up by ombudsman Denisova? When the international investigation started, Ukrainian AG had to admit that they don’t have a single fact of rape by a Russian servicemen and all the ‘victims’ aren’t real people.
Shame its leaders didn't act like it.
All NATO needed was to let the Minsk agreements implemented.
Really? Even the DPR - the one outfit in the world who would be best served by claiming different - admits Ukraine WAS implementing Minsk. Here's what the Donbas People's Republic THEMSELVES told Russia.
https://eng.ombudsman-dnr.ru/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/gd2020eng-2.pdf
It is worth noting that the signing of peace agreements helped to reduce the intensity of hostilities. Thus, the number of deaths among the residents of the Donetsk People's Republic decreased by 9 times in 2017 compared to 2014, in 2019 almost by 17 times, in 2020 by 50 times.
These dynamics reflect the measures within the Package of Measures for the Implementation of the Minsk Agreements, as well as ceasefire agreements. At the same time, a decrease in casualties among the civilian population was facilitated by the unlimited truce announced in Donbass on 21 July 2019.
Yup, that is their official report to the Kremlin, on their own website, telling the Kremlin and anyone else who can be arsed to read that not only was there NOT a "genocide" going on for the previous 24 months, the reason there wasn't a genocide is that Kyiv and the DPR both were implementing Minsk.
You might have to wait until after Putin croaks for the 2021 report to appear. Now why would that be? If there was even a shred of cooborative evidence vindicating Putin's causus belli in that report, it would already be up on the website, translated into English, and waved in people's faces at the UN. The most logical explanation as to why it's NOT live is, it debunks the bullshit excuses Putin gave for having this Special Military Operation.
The UN tracks the evidence given to it by the DPR and Kyiv. it identified a total civilian death toll of 25 directly due to the conflict, across Donbass, for all of 2021. That's from BOTH sides. Of the 25, at least 11 died in circumstances where blame can't be thrown at either the DPR administration or the Kyiv administration - for example, people killed by landmines that might've been laid 5+ years earlier.
Of course you don't like me or anyone else pointing this out to you repeatedly.
There's quite a difference between being sympathetic to Russia's genuine concerns (which I definitely was between 2014 and 2019), and STILL sticking to your guns when the evidence starts to have more holes in it than a fishing net.
Putin's been accidentally on purpose launching military invasions against Russia's neighbors ever since he bought into the Dugin & Zhirinovksy revanchist fantasies in the mid 90s. Poroshenko and others were warning us Putin would do this, years before Z came along.
Do you really believe that someone was stealing the washing machines?
Oh, absolutely. Probably not for their houses though. I guess you haven't been on any Russian online selling sites recently. My particular favorite has to be a Viessmann storage combi boiler, as new in box. Excellent boiler, and good make. No warranty, obviously, because Viessmann don't consider stolen kit to be covered. Unsurprisingly, they're not being shipped to Russia at the moment but you can have your very own from a limited stock that was looted.
Do you realize the difference in the incomes between Ukraine and Russia? Do you know what is the minimal allowance of the deployed Russian servicemen?
Is it more or less than what the Russian families get from having a dead son (assuming Russia acknowledges his death in service, which oftentimes it doesn't - ask the Moskva seamen's families)?
You, too, can have a Lada if your son's head gets shot off. Give me a break!
Deployed E1 in the Russian army makes $3,900 a month. That’s 10 times the Ukrainian average income.
Funny, that. I'm helping out a Ukrainian tradesman with just the trade level diploma and a few years of experience and his financial records are telling me he was on $1600 a month before the war. I guess it varies. But that's based on money he actually received. Have all those Russkies been paid yet? Or is it just an IOU?
Why is the current US world vision so self righteous that we should be intervening half way across the globe? We invaded Iraq on a pretext, Afghanistan, Lybia, Syria, Yemen, drone strikes all over the world killing innocent civilians etc... Bio labs all over the world.
Thank god someone posted something sensible! Quite right. A point that was being made years ago - remember Team America, World Police? America was given a lot of latitude after 9/11, and that goodwill has turned to ash in BRICS especially.
Trouble is, it wouldn't do any good for the world if Team America did retreat to a position of neutrality, and the replacement New World Order was a tag team of China and Russia telling the world what the new rules are. I don't think America's armies of litigation lawyers, carpet-baggers, Z-list politicians, Woke Folks and MBAs can win THAT culture war.
“Trouble is, it wouldn’t do any good for the world if Team America did retreat to a position of neutrality, and the replacement New World Order was a tag team of China and Russia telling the world what the new rules are. I don’t think America’s armies of litigation lawyers, carpet-baggers, Z-list politicians, Woke Folks and MBAs can win THAT culture war.”
Excellent points so what is the answer then? It can’t be a continuation of these ridiculous wars, proxy wars and drone strikes as the modern American shining city on a hill. What do we advocate for?
I see two versions behind your opus.
You either based it entirely on propaganda without researching the subject or intentionally deceiving
I suspect that you need this:
Ten wars, 6 million deaths, 0 sanctions
Yes that’s pretty powerful.
China is jonesing for a hot war to take control of Taiwan. Revanchist Russia has been fighting hot wars since Grozny to annex territory that even in the Soviet Union was not integrated into Russia.
If you enable one, you encourage the other. China is rattling its sabres but at a time where the West is already committing its energies in Ukraine, ask yourself ehy has China not started yet.
This tells me China wants Taiwan but it wants other things that are more important. Like trade with the West.
By contrast Russia’s current leadership is monomaniacal with its revanchism, they literally don’t care how many bridges they have to burn or how much it’ll cost Russia over generations if they take it all the way.
So, I would personally say, throw the kitchen sink at derailing the revanchists, liberating Kherson, and driving Russia out of the south. Leave some face savers... Russia can have Crimea + one Oblast, but only one. Odessa to adopt strict neutrality. Ukraine moves to a fully federal model like the USA so all oblasts have the autonomy that Crimea already had when Russia annexed it.
As Putin tore Minsk up in February, the new deal should be Budapest 2. Ukraine no longer gets to decide if foreign interference in its borders, economic and foreign policies is good gor Ukraine or bad for it. Any interference good or bad needs to be in the open whether it’s biolabs and military training by the West or promoting the Russkiy Mir in the east.
Break down the Kremlin’s firewalls, get independent media in the airwaves, put the frozen Russian assets into an international escrow with Chinese and Swiss oversight so the west can’t be convincingly accused of stealing it.
This doesn’t hurt ordinary Russians or help the Ukrainians directly but it may focus ambitions outside the revanchist clique that’s calling the shots.
An imperfect peace is better than a hot war, but Russia needs to sweat out the revanchist war fever Putin has talked them into.
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