Perhaps it is just the art you look at?
have you never seen the Pieta?
So much of Christian art where it depicts Mary is her at the foot of the cross
Posted on 09/07/2020 12:09:29 PM PDT by CondoleezzaProtege
we have been warned that satan comes with all signs and lying wonders.
Placemarker
Place maker
Your long and tedious post shouts that you really don’t know what a Christian is or what being born again is. That is the result of Catholicism ORG teaching, probably. Sad that. Mixing praying for alive friends, and praying to dead relatives is so far apart that you ought to comprehend the differences. Sadly, you don’t! Such is the scourge of Catholic purposed blindness. the ORG retains its power, but it costs precious souls their eternity.
“I have yet to meet a Catholic who would claim Mary is above Jesus in any way.”
I love how you just skipped over the fact that this is exactly why your cult prays to Mary rather than Jesus because you think He must obey her. The fact also is that your cult promotes that idea with it’s art.
“Mother of God.”
And for the record Mary isn’t the mother of God
While Jesus is God in the flesh your simplified answer doesn’t make the truth that simple.
1. Holy Scripture never calls Mary mother of God.
2. Can God die? No He is eternal, Isaiah 40:28 and many others
3. Can or did Jesus die? Yes,1 Cor 15:3
4. Is belief in God alone enough to save your soul? No, John 14:6
Now if your answer was as simple as you implied the answer should be yes, but it’s not.
Mary is not part of the Godhead therefore she is NOT the mother of God. Again calling her such would imply her as superior to God because the parent is always before the child and that just isn’t the truth of the Gospel.
“And yet that “dead Christ” is the main reason for Him”
First and foremost the “dead Christ” is a forbidden idol pure and simple.
Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
While we remember the death of our Lord Jesus Christ at Communion, Luke 22:19, but we celebrate His resurrection that declares God’s acceptance of His atoning work on the cross three days earlier. The battle was death and it was won at the resurrection, so keep your dead savior and I’ll keep proclaiming my living Savior.
“Again, that death is the ultimate of what He did, for us.”
Death, burial, and resurrection, Romans 10:9-11 try reading it I know it goes against everything you romans feel, but it’s the truth according to God.
“None of which is done as worship of diety.”
You dodged the question please explain the difference between what you do for your mary and your god?
rcc’s pray to Mary and their god
rcc’s bow to Mary and their god
rcc’s kneel to Mary and their god
rcc’s offer sacrifice to Mary and their god
rcc’s serve Mary and their god
rcc’s get grace from Mary and from their god
Actually your worship and service of your mary is done as deity.
Praying to a being is a form of worship just as Jesus did.
Bowing is also a form of worship just as satan ask Jesus to do and Jesus wouldn’t submit.
Look at the words that are used Greek doulia; Latin servitus
which is absolutely forbidden by God.
You romans play you little word games about worship, but service is just as sinful.
Luke 4:8
Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”
“yet you don’t accuse them of falsely worshiping the Queen, do you?”
You are deflecting I’m not debating the queen or angelicans now am I? So lets stay on your cult, but for the record if they worship the queen then yes they are just a guilty, there are you happy I just called them out too.
“Protestants created their own Church in the 1500s,”
Sorry, but the true Church has always been around, but due to you romans hunting us down we had to stay in hiding. The Waldensian’s were long before Luther and Calvin and had to hide in the forest and mountains as your romans killed them to almost extinction and there are more cases, but that is just one example.
“faith will save you, so they created their own god?”
Nope didn’t create their own God, but actually got to read the actual Bible that you romans did everything possible to keep secret.
Historian J. A. Wylie said this
It is idle in Rome to say, “I gave you the Bible, and therefore you must believe in me before you can believe in it.” The facts...conclusively dispose of this claim. Rome did not give us the Bible—she did all in her power to keep it from us; she retained it under the seal of a dead language; and when others broke that seal, and threw open its pages to all, she stood over the book, and unsheathing her fiery sword, would permit none to read the message of life, save at the peril of eternal anathema” (emphasis in original).i
“Why would Jesus have to sacrifice Himself if simple faith already saves everyone?”
Faith in what I ask you???
Hebrews 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
“That means nothing to the premise that we shouldn’t pray to Mary.”
It means everything because you cant find one example of praying to the dead in the Bible except for evil.
“But I’ll ask you this: what’s the difference between asking for the prayers of the saints, and asking for the prayers of your buddies?”
For one all born again believers whether alive or dead are saints. The next thing is that praying to the dead is forbidden according to the Holy Word of God. Oh and I don’t ask “buddies” to pray for me I ask saints born again believers that have a direct relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 8:19
When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
“How does abortion and child sacrifice relate to this?”
You indicated that because it was done long ago that it must be right I’ll quote YOU.
“People have been praying through their dead relatives and others back through Jewish times, and this continued through the early Christians.”
So I said abortion was done long ago, so I compared old traditions yours and mine to show you just how insane your comparison was.
“I’m plenty comfortable making absurd arguments as well.”
I compared arguments, but you did indeed made the absurd argument that we can agree on.
“Right, and who’s to say they aren’t correct? What if Jesus was just another prophet, and Christ hasn’t had His first coming yet? Jews are, technically Christian, they just don’t think Christ has gotten here yet.”
And now we have the real problem with you romans you don’t have a basic concept of Scriptures. Jesus said they are NOT correct... Jesus was a prophet He was “THE” Prophet. No non Christ believing Jews are not Christians because they don’t accept Him as the Messiah.
Well gosh Wally if all of those who don’t believe yet will just wait until Jesus comes the second time they will see He is the Christ, that is just about the most non biblical statement I have ever heard. Your blasphemy is really starting to show I would be careful if I was you you are treading on thin ice.
Praying to a physical being is not the same as praying to a dead person who is now in the spirit ONLY, without a physical body. Those who are dead in Christ are about to get a new physical bdoy and behavior mechanism (soul).
Confusing the state of the alive, the Angels, and the dead is a common problem with the religious practice of prayer. Mary is not the statuary, and praying to Mary, who is now in spirit only,, placing gifts at the statuary and expecting her to intercede at a rate of action akin to a goddess is, well, an error, to put it mildly.
Praying to spirits is an error. Jesus, however, is right now inhabiting a body, a body with what you might call supernatural capabilities. But to the 'other coordinate system' these may in fact be not super natural but quite natural to that spacetime coordinate system. So praying to Jesus is praying to a real physical being, not a disembodied spirit.
The Word of God tells you quite specifically that there is ONLY ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN CHRSIST JESUS. Claiming the Mother of Jesus is a co-redemtrix, or mediatrix between men and Jesus to get to God is tantamount to denying Jesus is one aspect of the Trinitarian GOD! So pretending that one can get prayers to God by praying to the Mother of Jesus so He will intervene is, well, blasphemy.
The demonic apparitions have the imagined Mary teaching that you can and in some cases MUST go through that Mary to 'find salvation'.Blasphemous!
Demonic beings exist, in a realm of space and time which you and I cannot now sense. Be careful about praying to the dead because the demons can give you 'answers' to your prayers, but they will be of the wrong origin for your spirit. For it is God Who is in you ... see 1 John 3:9.
nah MHG — you’re looking in the mirror calling yourself the prevaricator.
“Mother of God says something different than mother of Jesus.”
Mary is the mother of God-Jesus.
really? So in your opinion Mary has superiority, in mrobisr's opinion, over Jesus?
Perhaps it is just the art you look at?
have you never seen the Pieta?
So much of Christian art where it depicts Mary is her at the foot of the cross
really? you don't seem to have gone to many Catholic Churches at all
Definitely not ALL are like this, nor ALL are like how you portray them
Good catch on danny boy’s bullets that are nonsensical.
Svartalf - MHGinTN complains of “long and tedious and too much scripture” by Catholics when it goes against his non-biblical rapture beliefs.
If the shoe is on the other foot, then no complaints....
I have NEVER complained of ‘too much scripture’. You are a liar.
Which is wise since you utterly fail to refute even one of the few you attempted to counter.
As Christ was sinless, so Mary was; - And the bad thing about that is...? Mary is already a unique individual, why would she not have some unique attributes? She bore the baby Jesus, shared blood with him, her being sinless as well as He isn't too far-fetched.
You fail to comprehend the point, which is not that Mary being sinless would be a bad thing, but that this is nowhere taught in the only wholly God-inspired and faithful substantive record of what the NT church believed. And as said, being sinless is nowhere ascribed to any (morally cognizant) created beings, and is part of a long list of attributes which are uniquely ascribed to Christ but which Catholics rather wantonly ascribe to Mary. God is not negligent in ascribing honor and stating it, and we are simply not to exalt any created being above that which written (cf. 1 Co. 4:6) which in the case of your Mary is her far beyond what is written.
And the Holy Spirit characteristically notes relevant exceptions to the norm, even among lesser figures. From extreme age (Methuselah), to excess size, fingers (Goliath), strength (Samson), speed (Asahel), sterility (Hannah), a celibate marriage (David and Abishag), prolonged celibacy (Anna), birth by a virgin (Mary), ascetic diet (John the Baptist), uncharacteristic singleness (Paul and Barnabas), and uncharacteristic duplicity of Peter, the surpassing grace and labor and suffering of Paul, the lack of genealogy of Melchizedek, etc., to Christ being sinless, which is mentioned at least thrice. Thus your believe lacks the necessary warrant from Scripture.
She bore the baby Jesus, shared blood with him, her being sinless as well as He isn't too far-fetched.
What is far-fetched is imagining that any contribution of Mary to Christ included an attribute of Divinity, and or that God needed a sinless women to bear His incarnated word when He used holy but sin-guilty to express His pure word. Mary herself would need sinless parents if that is necessary to be sinless, and thus Catholics must assert another but different means of obtaining this exception to the norm fr Mary, yet which the Holy Spirit nowhere teaches.
As the the Son of God has a unique unique relationship with the Persons of the Trinity, so also Mary is said to have a unique relationship with all three Persons of the Trinity; - Obviously the Son of God has a unique relationship with the Trinity - He is part of it! And Mary is his mother, so why would she not have a unique relationship to it, compared to anyone else? (see next)
The unique relationship means, in part, the Virgin Mother "was, after her Son, exalted by divine grace above all angels and men." (http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=4967) and which is not simply by being chosen to be the mother of Jesus, but as the most holy virtuous perfect saint, who "could not be more closely united to God without becoming God," "through Whom the Holy Trinity is sanctified," and "we are saved through the merits" of her who "suffered for our sins" even "all the consequences of sin," and who id "all-powerful in saving sinners," and is "surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven," and through her "are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation," none of which is any where taught in Scripture. (Sources: http://peacebyjesus.net/MarySC.html#ascriptions)
As Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, - And why would Mary not be the greatest saint? What other mortal in all of history was chosen to bear the Son of God and give birth to Him? As you repeat this point in a later bullet (you do that a lot with this list. Good use of a thesaurus!), that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise”. If not her, then who? What other being deserves the most praise after God? One of the angels? Michael perhaps? Or some other saint - pick any believer that has ever gone to heaven. None of whom were granted the honors that Mary was.
Why would Mary not be the greatest saint? Are you serious? Your error is supposing that being chosen by God to be a instrument for the most noble function means that such possess the greatest character and endured the most testing and suffering and accomplished the most labor relative to the degree of grace given, and who thus receives the most rewards and position. As with the degree of punishment for the wicked, rewards are given relative to what one did according to the grace given. To whom, much is given, much is required, (Lk. 12:48) and those who endured the most testing and suffering and labored in obeying God will receive greater consolation and rewards. (2 Corinthians 1:7; Revelation 20:4; 1 Co. 3:8ff)
In regards to this we must look at what the Spirit of Christ says, which is not much concerning Mary. Based upon the rather brief descriptions we have in the gospels, Mary was (is) a holy, humble, pious, virtuous Spirit-filled women who Magnificant is glorious, paralleling that of Hannah, (1 Samuel 2:1-10) as the virgin who consented to bear the Messiah, thus is blessed above women, (cf. Judges 5:24) and who no doubt was a faithful mother. She no doubt suffered some reproach due to being pregnant before marriage, experienced a type of suffering due to the trials and suffering and death of of Christ, (Luke 2:35) but apart from reading into all that that which is not stated, little is said of her as regards physical suffering like a Job, or rejecting great position and being extensively tested in manifold ways like miracle-working Moses, or likewise patently laboring as Paul despite manifold difficulties. "in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; (2 Corinthians 6:4-5) Nor is there any evidence that she was a unique or elevated type of leader in the NT church whom souls sought for counsel and prayer.
And considering the degree of grace she received by having the Son of God in her household, much should be expected. In addition she was evidently raised in a Godly Jewish household and of faith, with relatives of faith, and was well taken care of in her older age.
In contrast we have Moses the man of God who rejected the pleasures and position of Egypt, and spent 40 years in the wilderness and the patiently led a constantly whining and rebellious people for 40 years, and was willing to go to Hell for them, and was excluded from entering the physical Promised land because these whining and rebellious faithful multitude finally provoked this supreme meek man to speak unadvisedly with his lips. (Psalms 106:33) But it was he who was in the Mount along with Elijah speaking with the Lord. Mark 9:2-4)
And again we have Paul, who at great cost also rejected position and patently labored more than all apostles was also willing to go to Hell for Israel. Just imagine what Catholics would with Mary if Scripture stated of Mary,
Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. (2 Corinthians 11:25-28)
Thus in response to your question, “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise”. "If not her, then who?" I have many candidates. Mary was given much, but others are shown to have been tested, and suffered and labored more than what is written of Mary, and thus Catholics can only read into Scripture what it does not teach.
And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself! - Is this a serious argument? Catholics think Mary is better, just because she has more made-up titles? Closing out your list with probably the weakest argument, and it doesn't matter which side you're arguing, this is a poor argument just in structure.
That is because, one again, you fail to comprehend the argument. Which is not that Catholics think Mary is better than Christ, which is not what I said (though she is said to be preferred over praying directly to God) but that this just part of Catholic elevation of their Mary far beyond what is written under the inspiration of the Spirit of Christ.
According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus... Um, isn't this guy part of the Protestant history too? Luther didn't start his own Church until 400 years after this one guy said this. So do Protestants not claim a history and lineage of all pre-1500 Catholicism? Or is all of that completely wiped and they started a religion from scratch (obviously not)? So basically they pick and choose a couple things they like, and just blame every part of their history there as "oh, that wasn't me"? But I'll give you this. I gave an absolute qualifier, when it's guaranteed in the long history of the Church that someone somewhere said something contrary to my absolute. Congrats.
That desperate argument is simply ignorant and wrong. Protestants not claim a history and lineage of all pre-1500 Catholicism (!) - God forbid - nor started a religion from scratch, for while distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed , there was always a remnant of believers by which the body of Christ, the only one true church prevailed. The NT church itself began with a remnant, and in dissent from the historical magisterium.
Meanwhile, I described something that a Catholic states, and which Louis de Montfort concurs with ("Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God") - whose writings were declared free from anything meriting censure by Pope Gregory XVI (1839) in the bull of his canonization - and my premise that in Catholicism we see hyper-exaltation of Mary far beyond what is written of any mortal. Thus one more of your attempted rebuttals is invalid.
However, nowhere in the only wholly God-inspired and faithful substantive record of what that NT believed, which is Scriptuire, esp. Acts thru Revelation, which best show us how they believed the prior revelation, is it even inferred that anyone prayed to created beings in Heaven - despite over 200 prayers being recorded by the Holy Spirit, and plenty of created beings to pray to and occasions to do so. And yet there are several passages about praying with others and asking them to pray for you. How is that different from asking for the prayers of those in heaven? They are still part of the body of Christ, irrespective of their no-longer earthly presence....
- Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much. James 5:16
And yet?! You simply cannot extrapolate addressing prayers to created beings in Heaven from praying with others and asking them to pray for you on earth when the latter is nowhere seen in Scripture, and ignores the God-ordained divisions btwn realms, and hearing and answering prayer is only shown to be a prerogative that belongs to God who alone is said to hear all prayer. You might as well argue that since believers create works of art on earth then thy are creating new planets in Heaven. Even if possible, it is not a belief warranted in Scripture.
The rich man and Lazarus tells us that those that have passed on...have the potential to be contacted by the dead.
Wrong again. The rich man asking Abraham to send Lazarus to warn his brethren was not that of someone on earth praying to someone invisible in Heaven, and Lazarus going back to topside to answer this request is no way means this happens than the rich man asking for a stop of water in Hell means that takes place.
- Whereby he [the priesthood] is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us. Hebrews 7:25
Wrong again and egregious eisegesis. "He" in Hebrews 7:25 is clearly Christ Himself, the only heavenly intercessor btwn man and God, (2 Tim. 2:5) "who ever liveth to make intercession for them," (Hebrews 7:25) being the heavenly high priest who alone "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin," and thus to whom believers are directed to look to to (Hebrews 4:15-16; 12:2).
And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. Rev 8:3-4
Which attempted support is another failure since no one is being prayer to here, neither is this a postal service, for instead elders and angels offering prayers (Rv. 5:8; 8:4,5) in memorial - like as in Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15; 16:9, "an offering of memorial" cf. Num. 16:9, - is not that of them being addressed in prayer, nor does it indicate that they had heard them previously, nor is it described as being a regular postal service, but it is one of the things which is a preclude to the final judgments upon the earth, testifying to the persecutions of the saints by the devil and world that it fit to be punished.
For when "He maketh inquisition for blood, he remembereth them: he forgetteth not the cry of the humble. (Psalms 9:12; cf. Genesis 4:10) and before judgment God brings forth testimony of the warrant for it, which includes the cry of those martyred souls under the altar in Rv. 6:9, and with odors representing prayer, akin to Leviticus 6:15, "burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour, even the memorial of it, unto the Lord." (Leviticus 6:15)
One example in which anyone from Heaven but God communicated with those on earth without both being personally present in the same realm. I'm not going through every single one of your copy-pasted list bullets. So here's one: There are plenty of stories of angels interacting with men without God directly involved. Who was with Sidrach, Misach, and Abdenago? Per Genesis 6, Nephilim roamed the Earth for a time. Who told Mary about her pregnancy?
Another and final (for here) failure for this examples only serve to support what I said, which was not that angels never interacted with men without God directly involved, but that (IIRC) no one in Heaven except God communicated with those on earth without both being personally present in the same realm (even if by vision), as was the case with those you invoked.
It’s also not Scriptural.
All born again/born from above believers have the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit living in them.
How is that different than Mary carrying Jesus to term?
The Holy Spirit is God, is He not?
If Mary is special for carrying the physical person of Jesus for only 9 months, then every believer is likewise special for carrying within them the Holy Spirit for as long as they are saved.
Showing favoritism is a sin, and yet that’s not only what Catholics do with Mary, but they claim God does it, too.
God did not choose Mary for some virtue that others did not possess and He never indicated we were to honor her because of it. Matter of fact, when a woman tried to do that in the gospels, Jesus squashed that pretty quickly.
The carnal mind which holds to the pre-Tribulation rapture is at enmity with God.
As clearly seen the entire philosophy you hold in the pre-Trib rapture is non-biblical and denies God.
why do you follow it?
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