Posted on 01/06/2020 4:30:27 PM PST by Secret Agent Man
Not when that something is uncreated.
Your statement is based on the arbitrary and baseless assumption that everything must be created.
But “naturally occurring forces” are in fact the something in question.
But it makes no sense to say something was created by nothing.
Assumes facts not in evidence
Your statement is based on the arbitrary and baseless assumption that everything must be created.
Your statement is based on the arbitrary and baseless assumption that something can exist without being created.
I don’t think that others decide my fate. I decide it to the best of my ability, with my own actions and my responses to circumstances outside of my control. I fell ill very young, and almost died. I made the decision to educate myself surrounding my condition, then to take it a step further and go into the medical field in order to not only care for myself, but also for others.
To the responses of right and wrong, I’m a Libertarian, and adhere to a non-aggression principle, and largely have a belief in negative rights (the right to not be assaulted, versus the ‘right’ to being provided with protection; the right to not be silenced by those who disagree with me, etc.) I do what is right for my family and community by participating lawfully and morally within it, and avoiding the wrong of invading the property and lives of others against their will. One doesn’t absolutely need a deity or religion to know that harming others harms the community, and thus oneself; not solely by damaging one’s reputation, but by potentially damaging the community’s resources as a whole. That’s something my state governor has yet to understand.
Our Constitution and laws were written largely based on Judeo-Christian law and morals. I’m aware of that. They don’t mean any less to me because I’m a heathen, but even before religion, early man had asked no one for permission to defend oneself and their family from imminent harm. I don’t ask any man for permission to do so, either.
“Stop pretending to know things you
don’t know”.
Take your own advice.
I suspect also that the souls in Hell are surprised they are in Hell.
I suspect the opposite -— that they, for all eternity, must abide with not only the knowledge that they could have avoided their punishment by humbling themselves before God, but must be tormented by regret and self-loathing, that they did not, and now, never can.
If I may butt in here, I would discount Dante’s descriptions of hell, as true, completely, though as a literary work of fiction, it is, of course, a tour de force. I would rely entirely upon the Bible when discovering information about the afterlife, though gifted teachers and preachers can certainly explain those Scriptures to us.
In early history much of “religion” consisted of man worshipping idols, which are no gods, but worshipped as such. Is it coincidence that a great many primitive “religions” consisted not only of sexual orgies, but also of human sacrifices, often infant sacrifices? The Bible says that it did not take mankind long to begin calling upon the Name of the LORD. (Genesis 4:26). But very soon the idea of the one true God was perverted into idols, perhaps because man was scattered, and lost the knowledge of the true God, so made up his own. But without following the true God, man made up his own rules, and his worship fell to baseness and perversion. (Even when the knowledge of God WAS there, man allowed himself to slide into depravity. Without the moral basis which God gives, our best will never be good enough, because God demands perfection, and the only way humans can have perfection, is through Jesus, the only perfect One, and his atonement for us.
Take your own advice.
I do try to do so consistently.
I avoid speculating about things I don't have first hand experience of, or solid evidence for.
I realize that's not how most people roll, and, especially in matters of metaphysics, I'm OK with that.
But I'm still the house skeptic.
I believe Hell may be as “simple” as eternal separation from God.
Sin separates us from God and when Jesus was on the cross, taking on all the sins of the world and tasting sin for the first time, He cried out about His Father forsaking Him - my personal interpretation is that this was the first time He had lost conscious contact with the Father and it was more agonizing than all His other wounds.
Hell may be conscious separation from God and knowing it...
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it...
I have never considered that, very interesting.
Not saying it’s a sure thing or I ever had it taught me, but it was a thought that occurred to me that I have mulled over over the years.
I guess the thinking is that if God is omnipresent, that means everywhere, then even in hell His presence is somehow there.
If His presence is there, it cannot be the love and mercy and grace that the redeemed know. It would have to be the full fury of His wrath being poured out on sin that the sinner chose to hang on to, thus taking the full punishment for their sin themselves instead of appealing to Christ and having Him have borne it.
If that makes any sense.
K.
In a world full of widgets, the widgets with the guns are in control and they decide everything. What is right or wrong is strictly their interpretation of it. There is no Heaven or Hell, just the moment and what a widget wants to do with that moment. There is no such thing as a moral code to confine the abuses dished out upon the smaller widgets by the larger widgets. In fact, the idea of abuse itself does not even exist. It's widget eat widget all day long, everywhere on the planet. A belief that "widgets" are in control gives us this type of world.
A world where there is belief in a supreme being not of the Earth lays a foundation for a different type of existence, one where everyone is equal and where there are consequences for one's actions while alive because there will be an afterlife either in Heaven or Hell. This type of world allows no man to morally be in control of mankind. Right and wrong can exist in this type of world and be respected as such. While on Earth, we have a chance to promote one of these two scenarios. If there is no God, or belief in a God, we become widget world. It really is that black and white.
Wow! If I had known what wikipedia said about Dr. Meyer, I never would have posted what I did. Next time I will make sure to listen to leftists’ opinions rather than actually listen to arguments made by a genius such as Dr. Meyer. Promise!
Here’s a better way to think of this.
You and I have different starting premises.
Yours paints a simpler and metaphysically incomplete cosmology.
You believe everything has a cause but that the ultimate cause, strangely, has no intent.
I believe everything has a cause except the ultimate cause, or prime mover. And that the ultimate cause is uncaused and has intent.
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