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To: schurmann

“Comparisons of handgun-cartridge effectiveness are necessarily uncertain, mostly because targets that are alive vary too much.”

That’s certainly true, but the comparison I harken back to is between the .38 long Colt that was ineffective in the Philippines and the 1911 that was effective.


63 posted on 05/16/2019 8:49:56 AM PDT by dsc (Our system of government cannot survive one-party control of communications.)
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To: dsc

“...the comparison I harken back to is between the .38 long Colt that was ineffective in the Philippines and the 1911 that was effective.” [dsc, post 63]

Not a valid comparison.

The Philippine Insurrection (aka Philippine-American War) was done with in 1902.

Colt’s first 45 autoloading pistol cartridge did not appear until 1905, firing a 200 gr bullet at a muzzle velocity of 900 ft/sec. The final version for commercial sale wasn’t standardized until a few years later: 230 gr bullet at 850 ft/sec. MIL STD 45 cal cartridge for handguns and submachine guns for WW2 and all subsequent procurement was a 234 gr bullet at muzzle velocity 820 ft/sec.

The first M1911 auto pistols did not reach US Army units in the field until 1912.

The 38 Colt military cartridge fired a 150 gr bullet to a velocity of 770 ft/sec and did exhibit poor effectiveness in action. Army Ordnance reissued Colt’s M1873 Single Action revolvers (declared obsolescent in 1892) on an urgent basis; the 45 Long Colt revolver round did provide superior output, firing a 255 gr bullet at a muzzle velocity of 860 ft/sec.

Army Ordnance adopted an off-the-shelf version of Colt’s New Service revolver as the M1909, in that year, purchasing some 30,000 guns. It was chambered for the 45 Long Colt, but the original case configuration (made for M1873 revolvers) had a rim so small the New Service extractor star fingers did not catch. A new version with a larger rim was made, but the new rims were of such a large diameter that they interfered with each other when loaded into the smaller-diameter cylinders of the M1873 revolvers. Only every other chamber could be loaded if the old revolvers were to function.

The selection of 0.45 inch as the minimum bullet diameter for autoloading pistols was made on the fly, on the strength of very sparse data. What is mostly forgotten now is that no small arms rounds provided sure effectiveness against the Moro juramentadoes. Not even the Krag-Jorgensen rifle firing the 30-40 round did the job every time; the 12-gauge shotgun gave best results.

Many of the features of the M1911 pistol were incorporated to answer the concerns of the horse cavalry. One is the grip safety. Some gun writers claim there was a requirement for the cartridge to be capable of putting down the trooper’s own horse, but I’ve yet to corroborate that in the official documentation.


64 posted on 05/16/2019 6:40:05 PM PDT by schurmann
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