US Civil War reading Recommendations?

Free Republic ^ | 11/23/2016 | Loud Mime

[Loud Mime]

Thank you - - and everybody else.

I’m going to be starting with the events that led up to the War. Someone pointed out that the stage was set by Jefferson’s presidency, which I find to be reasonable.

In Jefferson’s “Notes on Virginia,” Jefferson is worried about slavery from a spiritual perspective. He fears the wrath of God.

[BroJoeK]

jeffersondem: "Seems you have your rump in two saddles. Do you have an explanation?"

Speaking of rumps, that's obviously where jeffersondem keeps his head, and refuses under any circumstances to remove it therefrom.
What can we say?

jeffersondem: "If secession was not legal . . . then the actions of the South should have been put down as an insurrection"

Once again: Union leaders like Presidents Buchanan and Lincoln believed that Deep South Fire Eaters' declarations of secession where not constitutional, since they came from neither mutual consent nor "necessity" caused by oppression.
Unionists did not, however, believe the Federal government could use force to stop secessionists, unless Confederates started war, which is what Lincoln said in his First Inaugural.

So, it was not the declarations themselves which brought on Federal responses, but rather the violence started by secessionists against Union property, officials and troops.

Regardless, it seems to me jeffersondem's real concern here is whether he, legally, can write up his own little declarations and then he and DiogenesLamp can declare themselves to be the New Confederacy and set up shop on, oh, who knows, maybe a Florida Key?
The answer is: it's still a free country where you can say almost any cockamamie nonsense you wish, just so long as you don't break any laws, you & your buddies can declare yourselves to be anything you want -- New Confederacy, Islamic State, whatever floats your own little, itsy bitsy boats.

Of course, penalties will then be severe if you ever get caught jay-walking or overstaying your parking meter time...

[DiogenesLamp]

To paraphrase Scott Adams, what you have written is definitely funny, but it’s only a joke by coincidence.

That is the most perceptive description of BroJoeK's writing I have ever heard. He is the master of the irrelevant and the false equivalence.

His comparison of Pearl Harbor to Ft. Sumter still cracks me up. It also informs that he is not to be taken seriously.

[DiogenesLamp]

No, because "power" to break the law is not a "power", it's a crime, period.

And breaking the "Laws of nature, and of Nature's God" is the worst crime. Man made laws have no moral standing against laws of Nature and of God.

Those that put man made laws above those of God, are false prophets, liars and deceivers.

[DiogenesLamp]

Congratulations, you've just seen a glimpse of reality. How does it feel?

People have a right to independence. It is the principle upon which this nation is was founded. Perhaps you will get a glimpse of reality some day.

[DiogenesLamp]

I’m going to be starting with the events that led up to the War. Someone pointed out that the stage was set by Jefferson’s presidency, which I find to be reasonable.

Jefferson is a pretty good place to begin. He pretty much singlehandedly started the whole bloody thing.

It was on the basis of his words "All men are created equal" which were then written into the Massachusetts constitution of 1776 that triggered the first state wide abolition in the US. (Through Liberal court judges deliberately interpreting the words in a manner differently than they were intended by the delegates who wrote the Massachusetts constitution. It was a case of Judicial activism. )

[DiogenesLamp]

Since that boat was built and finished in 1860, and placed in service of the confederacy, it was never used in any trading capacity. Using it as an example of commercial shipping is a canard.

I don't think BroJoeK is terribly concerned about what is actually the truth. It only has to be "close enough" to suit his needs.

[jeffersondem]

“Speaking of rumps, that's obviously where jeffersondem keeps his head . . . Of course, penalties will then be severe if you ever get caught jay-walking or overstaying your parking meter time...”

Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you. – Big government Emperor in the movie Return of the Jedi.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "His comparison of Pearl Harbor to Ft. Sumter still cracks me up.
It also informs that he is not to be taken seriously."

Your constant denials of the obvious equivalence of those events informs us that you are neither honest nor to be taken seriously.

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "Those that put man made laws above those of God, are false prophets, liars and deceivers. "

That makes DiogenesLamp's in-depth defense of slave-holders the work of a false prophet, liar and deceiver.

[DiogenesLamp]

Your constant denials of the obvious equivalence of those events informs us that you are neither honest nor to be taken seriously.

What, not "Marxist dialectic" verbiage in this one? The assertion that Pearl Harbor has any resemblance to Ft. Sumter is your "Jumped the Shark" demonstrator.

Even Seward admitted that Ft. Sumter was worthless to the Union. What is it now? A Park?

[BroJoeK]

DiogenesLamp: "People have a right to independence.
It is the principle upon which this nation is was founded."

But Independence in 1776 was not the first resort of our Founders, it was their last resort, after all other efforts had failed and, indeed, after the British government had already declared and started war on Americans.
The key word in their Declaration is "necessary", which appears there four times, beginning with:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands "

The remainder of the Declaration explains why it was necessary.
No Founder ever supported disunion "at pleasure".

[DoodleDawg]

Not going to accept your bullsh*t pronouncements either.

Not when you can substitute your own.

[DiogenesLamp]

That makes DiogenesLamp's in-depth defense of slave-holders the work of a false prophet, liar and deceiver.

It is the people who constantly try to marry the issue of slavery to the issue of independence who are the deliberate liars.

The founders were all slave owners, yet they asserted a God granted right to independence. The legitimacy of the USA is based on the idea that independence is an inherent right.

[DiogenesLamp]

Not when you can substitute your own.

That you do not wish to hear things that are the objective truth is your problem, not mine. That it upends your world view is again, your problem, not mine.

[BroJoeK]

PeaRidge: "Since that boat was built and finished in 1860, and placed in service of the confederacy, it was never used in any trading capacity.
Using it as an example of commercial shipping is a canard."

DiogenesLamp: "I don't think BroJoeK is terribly concerned about what is actually the truth.
It only has to be "close enough" to suit his needs. "

In fact, there's no reason to suppose SS Planter did not serve its intended purpose in 1860 and 1861, before the war.
The photo we have is identified as possibly from that period.
So SS Planter -- built, owned & operated by South Carolinians -- puts the lie to DiogenesLamps' claim that all Southern shipping was under the iron thumb of New Yorkers.
It wasn't.

[DoodleDawg]

The only issue of dispute is making them pay for their fair share of the National Debt and National debt obligations that their Liberal congressional team has racked up since FDR. Settle their monetary accounts with us and I shall be happy to see that cesspool of a state government excise themselves from this body politic.

If you believe that the secession of the Southern states in 1860-61 was done in a legal manner, then why should California's leaving require anything more than a declaration that they're gone, and a mad scramble for every bit of federal property that wasn't nailed down?

[DiogenesLamp]

The remainder of the Declaration explains why it was necessary.

"Necessary" is in the eye of the beholder. Stop trying to judge other people by what *YOU* regard as necessary. George III didn't think the Colonists reasons for secceeding were "necessary", but it was up to them, not him, to decide what was "necessary".

We today suffer under far more egregious taxation than they ever did, are we too conclude that we now have a better argument for independence than did they?

[DiogenesLamp]

So SS Planter -- built, owned & operated by South Carolinians -- puts the lie to DiogenesLamps' claim that all Southern shipping was under the iron thumb of New Yorkers. It wasn't.

You are a kook. It is one ship. How many did New York control? Thousands?

Do you think 1 = 1000? What is wrong with you? You don't disprove anything, you only prove that you are some sort of kook with claims such as this.

[BroJoeK]

Jeffersondem: "Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy.
Let the hate flow through you. – Big government Emperor in the movie Return of the Jedi."

Good. Use your aggressive feelings, jeffersondem.
Let the hate flow through you: you want more anti-government lawlessness, more jihadies, more pro-slavery rebels... yes, that's the ticket, __ them all!

</sarc>