Animal Testing

Wow it took you 3 days to come up with an answer, and it’s nothing more than an insult. Sorry out here in reality the article IS lies, no special knowledge needed.

I don’t spend all my time reading comments. You seem to think that I spent 3 days thinking of your comment before I could “come up with an answer”.

It is no more an insult than calling somebody a liar.

I’m simply telling the truth. If you do not have specialist knowledge of the subject of an article which requires it, you cannot tell whether what it says is true or not.

I do not know if you are a scientist, but I certainly know that you do not understand the difference between science and philosophy of science.

What I wrote cannot be pseudo-science, because it does not claim to be science. It is philosophy of science, epistemology, so it is not science itself, but *about* science. That’s what I am, a philosopher of science, that’s what I graduated in.

Have you ever heard of Popper, Kuhn, Feyerabend? Ever heard of epistemology?

You go on about anti-science activists, but that has nothng to do with my article. You are obviously referring to other people and do not address what I wrote except with insulting terms like “lies” and such.

Again, a lie - do I really have to explain these things to a self-professed “scientist”? - is something intended to deceive, in analogy with pseudo-science pretending to be science.

Children always talk about people telling them lies, adults simply and intelligently say that they disagree with a certain opinion, if that is the case as it seems to be now.

In addition, that pseudo-science cannot be countered point-by-point is a groundless statement going against evidence, since it has been done innumerable times.

Indeed, specific lack of evidence is an argument against specific pseudo-scientific claims. The operative word here, though, is “specific”. Just to say: “It’s a lie”, although might be well received in a kindergarten playground, would not be accepted by any reasonable person capable of rational discussion.

You can’t have it both ways: either you can counter an argument, in which case you should, or you cannot, in which case how can you possibly say that it’s fallacious? You have fallen into a paradox.

I totally agree.

I don’t care why it takes you multiple days to reply, but it does show a lack of care. Which makes sense. Not much reason to care when you’re pushing forth a line of lies and BS. No specialist knowledge is needed, that’s just a dodge for a liar that knows no facts will defend his lies.

I do not know if you are a scientist, but I certainly know that you do not understand the difference between science and philosophy of science.

I am a scientist, and it should have been very clear from my style of writing and apparent familiarity with the subject matter that I do not write about scientific matters from an abstract viewpoint. Also, I could not care less about "philosophy of..." anything. I'm sure that if you were to talk with someone who studies "philosophy of science", they would spout all kinds of mumbo-jumbo that have little or nothing to do with the practice of science.

What I wrote cannot be pseudo-science, because it does not claim to be science. It is philosophy of science, epistemology, so it is not science itself, but *about* science. That’s what I am, a philosopher of science, that’s what I graduated in.

What you wrote falls clearly into both the anti-science and pseudo-science categories. It is anti-science, because it complains about current best practices in scientific/medical research, without any apparent understanding of why and how we scientists select our methodologies. It is pseudo-science because it puts forth claims that cannot be supported by any evidence--for instance, that computer modeling could substitute for empirical experimentation--and insists that those would be better scientific practices than the actual practices in use. Our current methodology is a result of thousands of years of method refinement; no one who does not have scientific training can possibly say with any credibility, "Oh, wouldn't this OTHER way that aligns with my particular world view be better for science?" Short answer: it wouldn't.

I should also point out that if you want to know *about* science, you are far better off talking to real scientists than to philosophers. Philosophers cannot reason their way into understanding how and why we do what we do, but scientists, for the most part, love to talk about it, in both the theory and the practice. In other words, we are far more expert in our guiding philosophies than any philosopher can be.

Have you ever heard of Popper, Kuhn, Feyerabend? Ever heard of epistemology?

They are irrelevant. A big difference between scientists and philosophers is that scientists are very concrete people who deal strictly with the observable and testable, while philosophers deal with abstractions that have little basis in the physical world. There is little commonality between scientific thought and philosophical musings. The word "philosophy" in my degree has a different meaning than the word "philosophy" used as a college course title.

You go on about anti-science activists, but that has nothng to do with my article. You are obviously referring to other people and do not address what I wrote except with insulting terms like “lies” and such.

Your article is little different than any other anti-science article I have seen. There are many flavors of anti-science (animal rights, environmentalism, creationism, vaccine refusal, organic foodism, etc.) but they all have common threads. They complain that the actual science is somehow unreliable and defective. They propose alternatives that not only cannot possibly work, but which would cause research to come to a screeching halt. They claim that scientists' refusals to use their alternatives holds back scientific research. It does not matter how you dress up your particular brand of anti-science, it is not novel.

Again, a lie - do I really have to explain these things to a self-professed “scientist”? - is something intended to deceive, in analogy with pseudo-science pretending to be science.

The lies of anti-science are very subtle, often being written using similar language as scientists. They have a specific target--people who have minimal, if any, scientific training, but who know enough to recognize the language use. To use a specific example from your previous post--that computer modeling can substitute for animal use--this sounds plausible to someone who sees the entire world around them as mostly a black box, having no idea about how anything works or the complexity of chemical/physical processes that all combine to form the world we experience. Computers are mind-bogglingly complex, aren't they? So claiming that computer modeling can substitute for actual experiments makes perfect sense to them. But as a scientist, I recognize the lie immediately, and am also left with the rather helpless certainty that no matter how much I explain how and why computers are unlikely to ever substitute for actual experiments, the explanations will roll off like water from a duck's back. The target audience for this brand of lies does not want to know reality, it wants to believe the pseudoscience.

In addition, that pseudo-science cannot be countered point-by-point is a groundless statement going against evidence, since it has been done innumerable times.

Indeed, specific lack of evidence is an argument against specific pseudo-scientific claims. The operative word here, though, is “specific”. Just to say: “It’s a lie”, although might be well received in a kindergarten playground, would not be accepted by any reasonable person capable of rational discussion.

It is a game of whack-a-mole. I can counter a specific lie with reams of evidence, complete with links to the relevant studies. But as soon as I do, the anti-science believer will come up with a new lie or different angle on the same old lie. And when I counter that with facts, explanations, and evidence, they produce yet another lie--actually, they rarely produce just a single lie in response, they produce several. I am constrained in that I must stick to reality, but my opponents in this argument have no such constraints. I care about reality; they care about feelings. Another facet of this game of whack-a-mole is that the lies are never presented alone; usually they are part of a long screed replete with lies. To adequately counter a single lie in such a screed takes more time and effort than they put into writing their entire screed; a full refutation of every lie in such a screed would end up being quite long.

Mostly, I am content to leave people alone who like living their lives in an emotional swamp, but in cases where their feelings endanger scientific progress or their health, I speak up. For example, I'm unlikely to say anything to someone extolling the virtues of "organic foods"--they may pay more for food than they have to, but they aren't necessarily endangering their lives--but I *will* counter those who promote the consumption of raw milk, because that practice *does* cause illness and death.

You can’t have it both ways: either you can counter an argument, in which case you should, or you cannot, in which case how can you possibly say that it’s fallacious? You have fallen into a paradox.

There is no paradox. My decision to select one or two example lies to refute, instead of taking the time and effort to refute *all* of them does not mean that I am unable to counter those lies, or that they cannot be refuted. It means that the time and effort I have to refute lies is finite, while the lies are infinite.

To illustrate: in theory, I can remove and count every single grain of sand on a beach. In practice, such an effort would take an extraordinary amount of time and effort, which I could use for more worthwhile activities. So, instead of counting every grain, I will take a core sample somewhere in the middle of the beach, quantitate the sand in that core, measure and estimate the volume of the beach, and extrapolate data measured from my sample to derive the number of sand grains on the beach. In this way, I take an activity that might take years and condense it into a few days' worth of work. My approach to the lies of pseudoscience is similar.

I thought you were against insults. A bit of hypocrisy.

It has nothing to do with caring. How long it takes to reply depends on how busy a person is. Jumping to conclusions seems to be your praxis.