[K-Stater]

Really? Texas? Yes, independent state for 8 years prior to joining the Union. Why do you ask?

Leaving aside your characterization of Texas for a moment, what about the other states I mentioned?

The others have their own fun origins of statehood, but you do realize none of them fought in the revolutionary war or signed the original Constitution, correct?

That's right. So none of them became states by merely ratifying the Constitution. And even the original 13 were colonies and only formed themselves into states when they adopted the Articles of Confederation, and retained that status when they adopted the Constitution. So strictly speaking, Lincoln was correct.

The Constitution was ratified and in effect before RI and VT joined...what were they before they did so...some word other than free and independent States?

Vermont, yes. They were an independent, sovereign state until 1791 when they were admitted as a state. Rhode Island, on the other hand, was never a state outside of the United States. It was always under the Articles of Confederation or the Constitution.

Did State constitutions exist before the federal one?

Yes, though I believe all of them date after the founding of the United States under the Articles of Confederation.

Were you trying to make a point?

That you were wrong when you mischaracterized what Lincoln said.

[Idabilly]

That's right. So none of them became states by merely ratifying the Constitution. And even the original 13 were colonies and only formed themselves into states when they adopted the Articles of Confederation, and retained that status when they adopted the Constitution. So strictly speaking, Lincoln was correct

Geez! You forget that the States won their independence, as sovereign entities. It's all about plurality and "sovereignty"...

His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz.. New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such, and for himself, his heirs, and successors, relinquishes all claims to the government, propriety, and territorial rights of the same and every part thereof.

[phi11yguy19]

Ignorance begets ignorance I see.

The Articles were ratified BY THE STATES. The ratification process itself demands the states had their sovereignty to ratify or reject the agreement BEFORE they could do so, and the Articles themselves acknowledge the "sovereign and independent states" entering into the agreement. So if that's too complicated, from 1776 to 1781, what political entity was Maryland if not a State? Did the Constitution or the Articles CREATE Maryland as you and Lincoln insist?

Vermont, yes. They were an independent, sovereign state until 1791 when they were admitted as a state.

So when Lincoln said "NO ONE of them ever having been a State out of the Union" was he correct "strictly speaking" or not? Did VT reserve the right to secede but no other? Or MD? Or did the fact that many of the states explicitly reserved the right in their State Constitutions become null and void 80 years later because some autocrat said so?

Sure, we can leave MD and TX and VT and RI and any other States and inconvenient facts aside as you wish until you can "validate" your point. I stand corrected once again.