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To: muawiyah

The creole hypothesis I can’t endorse. Have you ever seen a map of how far-flung the Algonquian languages were in North America?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algonquian_languages

All of these languages started to diverge from each other about 3000 B.C.—according to glottochronology and other estimates. Your hypothetical creole would have had to have been in place by that time to have created the extensive divergence between the languages we see today.

Give me a mechanism for this creolization that makes sense in this time frame. Show me with real-life examples how it happened.

Ironically, the process you are describing actually did happen once historically—when Pidgin Delaware (it never really became a creole) was formed with a largely Lenape vocabulary but with some deference to Germanic (Swedish, Dutch, English) grammar.

But not Algonquian itself, no.


78 posted on 03/07/2011 2:37:02 PM PST by Claud
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To: Claud
It takes but one generation to create an entirely new Creole. Sometimes they are created out of several closely related languages. Sometimes they occur when the constituent languages are very distant (Hawaii has such a Creole made up of Portuguese elements, English elements, Japanese elements, Tagalog elements, several different Chinese elements, and Polynesian elements.

Creoles differ substantially from pidjin ~

80 posted on 03/07/2011 2:41:35 PM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: Claud
BTW, the modern Germanic languages are about as mutually intelligible as the 32 different dialects they all seem to devolve into given half a chance.

However, English has only one existing cognate language ~ Freis in Freisland, and it doesn't sound anything like English. Freis itself doesn't have as many dialects as your standard Germanic languages do.

Colonial Dutch, in the British colonies, was derived from a handful of Dutch dialects and within two generations it'd broken up into the requisite 32 different dialects, although many analysts argue it actually created a brand new 33rd dialect spoken West of Albany.

One of the characteristics of English that makes it the dominant language wherever it is spoken is that it doesn't form dialect forms very easily ~ if at all.

82 posted on 03/07/2011 2:46:40 PM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: Claud
Abenaki ~ first Indians to have a real problem with whites no longer identifying them as Indians.

BTW, the write up in Wiki actually references a situation where SEVERAL Algonkian languages formed a new creole.

This stuff goes on all the time, particularly if you don't have large vocabularies, or if you have a large vocabulary already shared by other language groups.

87 posted on 03/07/2011 2:55:27 PM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: Claud; blam
In the church of Frösthult, county of Uppland in Sweden one can see a tombstone inscribed with words in Lenape jargon, a variation of Lenape language used in trade and contacts with europeans.
The tombstone belongs to Johan Campanius (1601-1683) who was a Swedish priest that was active in the colony New Sweden, which was located in todays Delaware, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. The colony lasted from 1638 to 1655.
...
The text (which is somewhat hard to exactly interpret) goes like this: Umar sachiman chinsika hacking haro ankarop machis chuki .
firstnations.com



http://www.digitaltmuseum.se/search?q=Gravsten+i+Fr%C3%B6sthults+kyrka&owners
98 posted on 03/08/2011 12:58:13 AM PST by Viiksitimali
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