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To: DiogenesLamp
From Wednesday June 27, 1787 Madison Debates on the US Constitution:

Mr L. Martin speaking:

In order to prove that individuals in a State of nature are equally free & independent he read passages from Locke, Vattel, Lord Summers- Priestly. To prove that the case is the same with States till they surrender their equal sovereignty, he read other passages in Locke & Vattel, and also Rutherford: that the States being equal cannot treat or confederate so as to give up an equality of votes without giving up their liberty: that the propositions on the table were a system of slavery for IO States: that as Va. Masts. & Pa.

Looked up Rutherford. Turns out to be Samuel Rutherford (and for whom the Rutherford institute is named.) He writes about Natural law. I'll point out something he wrote in the next post.

523 posted on 09/04/2013 3:35:01 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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To: DiogenesLamp

— 1. There is a subjection in respect of natural being, as the effect to the cause; so, though Adam had never sinned, this morality of the fifth command should have stood in vigour, that the son by nature, without any positive law, should have been subject to the father, because from him he hath his being, as from a second cause.

Arg. 2. — Man is born by nature free from all subjection, except of that which is most kindly and natural, and that is fatherly or filial subjection, or matrimonial subjection of the wife to the husband; and especially he is free of subjection to a prince by nature; because to be under jurisdiction to a judge or king, hath a sort of jurisdiction, (argument, L. Si quis sit fugitivus. F. de edil. edict. in S. penult. vel fin.) especially to be under penal laws now in the state of sin. The learned senator Ferdinandus Vasquez saith, (lib. 2. c. 82. n. 15,) Every subject is to lay down his life for the prince. Now no man is born under subjection to penal laws or dying for his prince.

Arg. 7. — What is from the womb, and so natural, is eternal, and agreeth to all societies of men; but a monarchy agreeth not to all societies of men; for many hundred years; de facto, there was not a king till Nimrod's time, the world being governed by families, and till Moses' time we find no institution for kings, (Gen. vii.) and the numerous multiplication of mankind did occasion monarchies, otherwise, fatherly government being the first and measure of the rest, must be the best; for it is better that my father govern me, than that a stranger govern me, and, therefore, the Lord forbade his people to set a stranger over themselves to be their king. The P. Prelate contendeth for the contrary, (c. 12, p. 125,) "Every man (saith he) is born subject to his father, of whom immediately he hath his existence in nature; and if his father be the subject of another, he is born the subject of his father's superior." —

Pretty heavy on the Jus Sanguinus argument being "Natural law."

Link:

524 posted on 09/04/2013 4:13:44 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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To: DiogenesLamp
Great find. The Founders were well versed in the concept of Natural Law, and for Vattel to be a non-issue 9acording to some people) they sure mentioned him a lot! LOL!

The opening line from the source in particular caught my eye:

Mr. L. MARTIN contended at great length and with great eagerness that the General Govt. was meant merely to preserve the State Governts.: not to govern individuals:

I new it sounded familiar, and sure enough:

Having given you this general idea and description of the law of nations; need I expatiate on its dignity and importance? The law of nations is the law of sovereigns. In free states, such as ours, the sovereign or supreme power resides in the people. In free states, therefore, such as ours, the law of nations is the law of the people.
Let us again beware of being misled by an ambiguity, sometimes, such is the structure of language, unavoidable. When I say that, in free states, the law of nations is the law of the people; I mean not that it is a law made by the people, or by virtue of their delegated authority; as, in free states, all municipal laws are. But when I say that, in free states, the law of nations is the law of the people; I mean that, as the law of nature, in other words, as the will of nature's God, it is indispensably binding upon the people, in whom the sovereign power resides; and who are, consequently, under the most sacred obligations to exercise that power, or to delegate it to such as will exercise it, in a manner agreeable to those rules and maxims, which the law of nature prescribes to every state, for the happiness of each, and for the happiness of all.

Of the Law of Nations, James Wilson, Lectures on Law

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Sorry about what probably appeared to be a FReepmail unrelated to your post. I swear that link went to a different place entirely the first time.

:-)

526 posted on 09/05/2013 11:39:25 AM PDT by MamaTexan (Due to the newly adopted policy at FR, every post I make may be my last.)
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